Police Question Videographer, Sorry I do not answer questions

@KyJim
I'm not sayin' ya cherry picked what I wrote, but yeah you totally did commit that particular logical fallacy. So, if I may I'll repeat the salient point of that post.

If you're truly unlucky you may end up like Brett Darrow, who's name was shared amongst officers and of whom one CopTalk user repeating the address wrote, "Every copper, City and County, should etch this little punks [sic] name in their [sic] memory. Brett Darrow, [address deleted], city of St. Louis."
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I can understand you not being familiar with Brett Darrow, obviously I didn't provide a link figuring anyone curious would do their own research. As that didn't happen, please allow me to expound on the subject.

Brett Darrow came to most people's attention when a Youtube video of him being stopped by St. George police Sgt. James Kuehnlein was made public.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwTyS_reWyk


That incident with Kuehnlein which resulted in this post - -

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on StLouisCopTalk urging law enforcement officers to target and retaliate against the wrongly accused citizen.


2005 is assaulted by an off duty officer who turned out to have been drunk at the time. The officer lied about the incident and Darrow is arrested on falsified charges that were later dropped. His name is now 'in the system'.

2006. While minding his own business and obeying all traffic laws, Darrow was stopped at a suspicionless sobriety checkpoint in St. Louis County, Missouri. An officer objected to Darrow's desire to not communicate or explain his actions. The incident was recorded.

2007, incident with Kuehnlein.

2007, Darrow is in court, charged with an illegal U-turn in June. He brings video evidence of his innocence to court. His charge is continued when the ticketing officer didn't show up. When she doesn't show up a second time, the charges are dismissed. Who was this female officer? The same one that arrested him when he was assaulted by a drunk, off duty police officer in 2005.


Kuehnlein was fired as a result of the incident but managed to get a job with the Velda City PD where he would face charges of felony kidnapping and two counts of domestic assault against his girlfriend.
 
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@KyJim
I'm not sayin' ya cherry picked what I wrote, but yeah you totally did commit that particular logical fallacy. So, if I may I'll repeat the salient point of that post.
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Not sure what you mean by cherry picking. I was agreeing with your point that police often retain data from encounters they have with the public that falls short of an arrest. You referred to an abusive use of that information gathering while I mentioned a proper investigative use of that data. To be clear, I have a bit of a problem with police maintaining such information even if they have the purest motives. Like many here, I'm not too keen on any government agency having more information about me than is necessary -- and I work for the government.
 
While you may not want to talk to the cops, believing they are "fishing", advising anyone never to talk to the cops is just foolish.

There are certain situations where you are within your rights not to talk to the police, but in general, you are not. If the cops are investigating something, talking to you (as a potential witness) is part of their job. And taking down your name, and what you said is also.

IF, for example you are videoing a police action (say a traffic stop) in public, absent specific state statutes, you have every right to do so. BUT you being there means that both you and your camera are witnesses. And refusal to even talk to the police could result in a fully justified obstruction of justice charge. Failure to follow an officers commands can also lead to fully justified charges.

Yes, the system can be, and is abused. It does happen all too often. But to act as if, or worse imply that the police do nothing but abuse their power is not only untrue, it is irresponsible rabble rousing.

In most situations, you have to talk to the police if they talk to you. You may decide not to tell them what they want to hear, you may decide to speak in tongues if you can, that's your choice, and you will bear any consequences. Saying you won't talk to them, that its your right not to, simply isn't true in many, if not most circumstances.
 
"Neither the locals nor the staties like to have their aw-thaw-rih-tay challenged"

Yeah. It's not just police who don't like to have their authority challenged.

Far too many asshats these days are going around looking to provoke confrontations with police (on film), screaming about police abuses while waving a copy of the Constitution around. They dispay the same kind of attitude they're accusing the police of having, and invariably it leads to all sorts of stupidity.

Being POLITE when you're interacting with a police officer doesn't cost anyone a dime, and it can defuse many situations.

Will that always work? No. Sometimes you get an officer who is a complete and total tool. But you're never going to get anywhere by being a turbotool in return.
 
I respectfully disagree 100% on the fishing comment.
I've been asked deliberately inflammatory questions looking to provoke a response.

If questions like:
"Do you like getting tickets?"
or:
"How would you like to meet Mr Nightstick"?

aren't fishing for a response then i don't know what is.
 
Something else has to lead up to such inflammatory questions from a police officer.
I consider myself fortunate that I have not had any negative encounters with any law enforcement officer.
 
I consider myself fortunate that I have not had any negative encounters with any law enforcement officer.
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It's easy to avoid those. It really is. Some folks just like to go looking for trouble, then they complain when they get it.
 
spacemanspiff said:
Something else has to lead up to such inflammatory questions from a police officer.
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While that may be true, there are times when the "something" may have been an argument with the officer's wife before he reported for duty.

Honestly, those of you who think cops are never mean and nasty and rotten clearly live in a different part of the country than I do.
 
Folks are Folks whatever thier job . I knew one Cop that admitted he had addiction problems and would rob drunks and keep drugs that he took off users and dealers . He worked on several forces in 3 differant states before it caught up with him . I don,t think I can name a line of work that you want run into a bad apple once in a while .
 
Some folks just like to go looking for trouble, then they complain when they get it.
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Not in this specific case.
I was waiting for a truck to arrive in midtown Manhattan. Parking/unloading there is tricky at best so we worked out a system that minimized problems.
It worked for years till this one day.
The driver would call us the moment he entered Manhattan. We'd get a "wrecking crew"together & go to the street. He'd stop for a second unload a waybill copy only & leave. We'd check the waybill against the order while he circled the block, keeping traffic moving. when he returned we'd grab everything rapidly, stack it on the sidewalk & hand him the filled in delivery slip & he'd leave.

This time I went down & there was a total strangers truck parked there with no driver.
I stood on the sidewalk waiting for him to move.
That was when the LEO asked me if I liked tickets. I tried to tell him it wasn't my truck, but he was convinced he had something going on & demanded my ID. I gave him my ID. He said he would ONLY accept a New York Drivers license. I don't have one, never did.

The he asked me how the hell I drove a truck without a license. I again firmly, but politely told him it wasn't my truck & I knew nothing about it.

When he asked me what I was doing I told him waiting for a different truck to arrive.

How exactly did I provoke him?
 
Based on what you told us, you didn't provoke the cop.

EVERY barrel has a bad apple or two...

Some people hate to admit when they are wrong. Some of those people wear badges, and some of them feel like wearing a badge means they are never wrong.

Clearly the officer made the assumption it was your truck, and wouldn't accept the fact that he made a mistake. I can understand the officer not just accepting your word, cops get lied to all the time.

But without any evidence either way (and just your word against his assumption) it was wrong of him to be anything but civil to you.

Perhaps he felt you were lying to him, and he could intimidate you into moving "your" truck. Might have worked, if it WAS your truck, but absolutely the wrong thing to do, since it wasn't.
 
I never speak to, and always film the police. Around here they are more of a gang than anything. They harass everyone, even old ladies on the way to church. Getting tired of it and glad to see some other people feel the same way I do.
 
Thank you all

The whole point of posting this, was to stir up some great opinion and conversation, I have read every post on this topic and just wanted to post a thank you for all the interesting reading and opinions offered. :cool:

This has been a great read, thank you all for your opinions. Now, let me give you all some more food for thought to expand the discussion.

What are your views on patrol officers keeping a binder with information on EVERYONE they talk to, EVEN LAW ABIDING PEOPLE.

Example- When Deputy Perez first walked up he called me by my LEGAL first name. Now I had a previous short conversation with him a few months prior, a casual conversation, and gave him my first name only (Tom)
But when he walked up he called me by Thomas, which is how it appears on my drivers licence.

Also, not in the video, as he says his goodnight, he called me Mr (last name)
Why did he even ask me for ID if he already knew who I was? And If I had not given him the info, how did he know my full legal name?

Answer- they keep a file on EVERYONE they contact or talk to NO MATTER WHY.

After the Deputy's left and I spoke to a woman who was there being curious herself, and she told me that before the deputy came over to me, he pulled out a binder, flipped through it, read a bit, then came over.

If someone has a clean record, WHY have a file on LAW abiding people??

Let the comments roll! :eek:
 
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Although I'm not a LEO, I grew up with quite a few around me in the neighborhood.
I recall a now retired L.A.P.D. officer saying he had a personal contacts list of people he ran into or noticed on a regular basis while on patrol. A description, name, address and any other info he could gather and keep for future reference. This was on anyone. Not just bad guys he saw regularly.
I too have a personal contacts list on my PC at home. Folks I have worked with, been referred to professionally or personally, business cards that were handed to me at a meeting of one kind or another. Why? In case I need them in the future for whatever reason.
Information is the key to getting done what needs to be done.
Ever searched through the membership here?
 
I dont mind Cops keeping a record of who they come in contact with thats nothing new . That means to me they are doing their job . At work thoes of us in leadership posistions are told we should do the same thing , I dont Im busy getting stuff done .
Remember these days around 1/2 of the people you talk to are useing their phone to record every thing you say .
 
If someone has a clean record, WHY have a file on LAW abiding people??
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Have you seen this file, or do you just assume that is the only way he could possibly have remembered your name?

Some people simply have good memories. I can attest to this much from the side job I have working as bar security. I remember a lot of names and faces of those who have behaved badly.
 
The police think it's just peachy keen to have everyone's name, and street address handy, don't they?

Just ask one of them where HE lives, what street his house and wife and kids live. And see the reaction that prompts.

What's good for the goose is apparently not good for the gander.

@SpacemanSpiff. This is the 21st century, anything recorded (name, address, etc.) is more likely being kept in the cloud except for by a few old fogies. Less evidence to be found that way, just as LEO are apt to use personal cellphones to collaborate rather than recorded radio or MDT transmissions.
 
Have you seen this file, or do you just assume that is the only way he could possibly have remembered your name?
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My LAST NAME has never been offered, yet he knew it
 
Considering I don't have an axe to grind against law enforcement, and that I do not engage in unlawful activities, I am always happy to answer their questions. It is not about 'giving up rights'. Its about being a useful member of my community.
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It can also be about giving away your constitutional presumption of innocence.

I generally side with law enforcement and give them the benefit of the doubt, but I also live in a small town where police sometimes don't have a lot to do, and I'm not so likely to be cheerily cooperative if I fell I'm being randomly pulled over for a DUI fishing expedition just because it's Saturday night. If my actions would invoke question or suspicion from a reasonable person, I will entertain the questions because I understand he has job to do. When he starts bluffing about calling in the canine unit to sniff out my vehicle because my exhaust broke on the way home, and was loud, I can be a jerk. Typically, when you get asked a bunch of questions, they are fishing for a confession to SOMETHING. They have no idea what. They try to intimidate you by making you believe that a quick confession will be a lot better for you. I love the classic "Do you know why I pulled you over?" question. Whatever verbal guess you make, you WILL be cited for. "Where are you coming from?" is fishing for probably cause. "Joe's Bar and Grill" will get you a walk the line test.

It is good advice to not talk to police unless you are not the subject of their inquiry, unless its an unofficial friendly "nice weather we're having" kind of chat.
 
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