Police can demand ID, high court rules

TheeBadOne

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WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court ruled Monday that people do not have a constitutional right to refuse to tell police their names.

The 5-4 decision frees the government to arrest and punish people who won’t cooperate by revealing their identity.

The decision was a defeat for privacy rights advocates who argued that the government could use this power to force people who have done nothing wrong to submit to fingerprinting or divulge more personal information.

Police, meanwhile, had argued that identification requests are a routine part of detective work, including efforts to get information about terrorists.

The justices upheld a Nevada cattle rancher’s misdemeanor conviction. He was arrested after he told a deputy that he didn’t have to reveal his name or show an ID during an encounter on a rural road in 2000.

Larry “Dudley” Hiibel was prosecuted, based on his silence and fined $250. The Nevada Supreme Court sided with police on a 4-3 vote last year.

What's in a name?
Justices agreed in a unique ruling that addresses just what’s in a name.

The ruling was a follow up to a 1968 decision that said police may briefly detain someone on reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing, without the stronger standard of probable cause, to get more information. Justices said that during such brief detentions, known as Terry stops after the 1968 ruling, people must answer questions about their identities.

Justices had been asked to rule that forcing someone to give police their name violated a person’s Fourth Amendment protection from unreasonable searches and the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.

Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, writing for the majority, said that that it violated neither.

“Obtaining a suspect’s name in the course of a Terry stop serves important government interests,” Kennedy wrote.

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“Obtaining a suspect’s name in the course of a Terry stop serves important government interests,”


And as long as that's the standard by which the Constitution is "interpreted", that old piece of paper means nothing.

The whole point of the Consitution was to hinder the goverment's "interests"!
 
This is not an unexpected ruling, in fact, I'm surprised it took 36 years (since Terry) for them to come up with it.
 
This is not an unexpected ruling, in fact, I'm surprised it took 36 years (since Terry) for them to come up with it.
It didn't. It took 36 years for a case to go through the courts to challenge those state laws.
 
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=000&invol=03-5554


The Court is now of the view that Terry principles permit a State to require a suspect to disclose his name in the course of a Terry stop. Terry, supra, at 34. The Nevada statute is consistent with Fourth Amendment prohibitions against unreasonable searches and seizures because it properly balances the intrusion on the individual's interests against the promotion of legitimate government interests.

The 4th. amendment never barred searches and seizures. It barred unreasonable searches and seizures. And in my opinion, if you have reason to seize someone, it's reasonable to be able to identify them as part of the seizure. It's a good thing.
 
With the open borders we have and the way the Executive Dept of the gubmint wants to continue issuing amnesties for illegals, I don't see how we can avoid it. I sure as heck want the questioning officer to know ASAP that I'm a peaceful, driver's license-totin' and firearm- (and firearms license) totin' American. BUT, it would be even more important (to me) if I looked Hispanic or mid-Eastern. How many 5th generation, land owner, tax paying Americans of Hispanic descent get their ID checked twice a day? That ain't right either.

I'm thinking about it this way: We started out as a "melting pot" of nationalities. We've continued that way. How else is the local law supposed to know my neighbor, Juan, isn't an illegal when he's 20 miles away in another town? 'Specially when they are looking for a beat up green Chevy pickup driven by a Mexican.

I know this doesn't address the exact argument of the demand for "your papers, please", but it's the first thing I thought of. My fellow Americans are subjected to suspicion based on their skin color and associations. I can show my driver's license. It doesn't lesson the burden on Juan, but we can both be upset about it together, for what it's worth.

Now here's something to think about ... what about all those driver's licenses issued to illegals out there in PRK? Didn't a major political party, along with a Mexican immigrant's right's group hold several motor-voter drives out there a few years back? I know they recruited them for part of the welfare system in that state. How do you think that makes my neighbor, Juan, feel? I can tell you he don' like it one bit after the work he put in to "play by the rules" and naturalize. He's a good neighbor. He doesn't deserve that crap anymore than I do.

So, as to it being a good thing ... yeah, maybe so, but for some real crummy reasons. The unreasonable part bothers me. My faith and trust in Law Enforcement, in general, has taken a nose dive these last ten years. Mostly because of their militarization and proliferation of swat teams and instances of those tactics on citizens they are supposed to protect. I am very dissatisfied that good lawmen are getting a bad rap for the cowboy antics of the few black-clad, badge-totin', ninjas. But there it is. I'll vote for the uniformed cop every time. There are a lot of good reasons to get to know the local law on your own grounds.

Rant over.
 
if you have reason to seize someone, it's reasonable to be able to identify them as part of the seizure.

I can't argue with that. But that's not what SCOTUS said, as I understand it. They said that the police can require identification for any reason. (Which means for NO reason!)

If I've got that wrong, someone please correct me.


BTW, even if this particular ruling is right, my statement above stands. If protecting "government interests" is a valid test of Constitutionality, we're in deep doo doo.
 
But that's not what SCOTUS said, as I understand it. They said that the police can require identification for any reason. (Which means for NO reason!)

I think you're wrong. I posted a link to the whole decision. I believe they need reasonable suspicion to compell you to identify yourself, and be able to arrest you for interfering with an investigation or some such charge if you refuse. For instance:

The Court is now of the view that Terry principles permit a State to require a suspect to disclose his name in the course of a Terry stop.

A Terry stop isn't a Terry stop without at least R.S. .
 
Question:
What good does demanding identification do for a police officer? What does presentation of the name offer?

If the individual is an innocent individual, their name may be recorded by the police officer as a contact depending on the jurisdiction, right? Beyond that, nothing. This is harmless, but the presentation of the name doesn't strike me as particularly beneficial either.

One major benefit I see of the presentation of valid ID is if the officer looks up the ID and finds that the person has an outstanding warrant. Then person is then arrested and taken to jail to face up to whatever crime they've been accused of.

Another possible benefit is when a victim says "Joe Criminal attacked me!" A police officer might try to obtain an identification to determine if someone was, in fact, Joe Criminal to be further questioned.

But let's say that they do have a warrant out against them, or that the guy actually is Joe Criminal. Wouldn't supplying their identification under those circumstances (in other words, the only useful ones) be self-incriminating? Isn't that something that the 5th says they don't have to do? Isn't being punished for not doing so compelled testimony?

I've got no problem with an officer asking Joe Criminal for his identification in the course of his duties, but I've got a problem with a law that makes it a crime to not show said identification. So ... to me it seems like compelled testimony leading to self-incrimination in any situation that the ID matters (except to exclude someone as a suspect, in which case they're punished for not clearing themselves).

So, which of you fine lawyer types want to poke holes in the way I read it?
 
If everyone refused to give their ID and everyone was fined $250, they would go bankrupt because it would cost them at least $250 / day to keep you locked up and fed. If they arrest you on a Friday night, they can't take you before a judge before Monday morning. That's three days of room and feeding pluss the cost of fingerprinting, photographing, sending requests to the FBI for ID, etc.
 
'Nother boneheaded decision by the Rehnquisition.

Hope Clarence Thomas voted like the real conservative that he is.

From now on, my name is "Kissm I. Butt," should someone ask, since I am now compelled by law to provide that info. :D
 
All in all, being able to demand that a person reveal their identity to the police who have stopped the person because of suspicious circumstances seems reasonable. Note that the court did not say anything about he police being allowed to randomly stop people and demanding their name.

Also, contrary to fears, the ruling did not say anything about allowing the police to verify your identity via other means such as fingerprinting or demanding other personal information.

If a person being investigated refuses to provide a name, that might be considered an obstruction of justice.
 
Ah, 1968. How things have been changed. Or was it all just coincidental? ;)

If they have the probable cause to make an arrest. Fine. An arrested person must of course be identified. But this "suspicion of wrongdoing" stop and check is very much akin to the idea of "stop and checks" on people open carrying in open carry states "just to see if the serial number comes back stolen" or "in case the subject is a convicted felon".

Taking this as a general precedence will lead to the universal acceptence of "stop and check" for anything "because _______ [insert the suspicion of wrongdoing but not probable cause for arrest]". Reminds me of the roadblocks in Germany in the 1970s and 80s - yes, they asked for "your papers" literally.

As far as all the illegals in this country, people should question the rationality - the clinical sanity - or their loyalty to this country, of specific people holding public office in allowing this, and thus creating conditions of a continuing threat to national security. They have created "the problem", and then "solution" in the form of "need" to place controls on us.
 
Well, I have to view this as a good thing, as long as it's not abused. Then, of course, it would be a problem.

I know of one case where this particular law came in very useful.

When I worked in a small casino, we had a guy, and some friends of his, who kept coming in and cashing checks. Payroll checks and personal checks. Our cashiers caught on about the third time, because it was the third name he'd used. No, he wasn't real bright. They called me while he was waiting in line, and I was able to get good mugshots with the PTZ cameras. Turned the pictures over to the county financial crimes detectives. They took one look, and went "Yeah, we know him." He had several felony warrants, and was wanted in about ten jurisdictions in California and Nevada, for forgery, counterfeiting checks, credit card fraud, etc, etc, etc. They caught his buddies, and found all the equipment they were using, in a motel in town the next night, but he wasn't there. They put his picture (the one I took :D ) in the local paper the next day. As you can imagine, he didn't stick around.

The guy was stopped in Las Vegas by Metro P.D. for a traffic violation. Speeding. He refused to show I.D., several times. The Metro officer finally arrested him for refusing. At the jail, they found out he was refusing because of all the warrants. Heck, the car he was stopped in had been rented with a stolen credit card...

This guy wasn't just ripping off companies. He was forging checks on the accounts of families, the elderly (he seemed to favor those), robbing these people of their hard earned money.

If that law hadn't been in effect, the guy would have got away.

As far as being stopped for openly carrying...I can't say it wouldn't happen. Especially in Vegas. But I've carried openly here a few times, and aside from the same cop driving by a couple times, I've never been stopped.
 
If the individual is an innocent individual, their name may be recorded by the police officer as a contact depending on the jurisdiction, right? Beyond that, nothing. This is harmless, but the presentation of the name doesn't strike me as particularly beneficial either.

Police often have to let real bad criminals go because their reasonable suspicion doesn't rise to the level of probable cause. At least if you've identified the guy during the Terry stop, you have somewhere to start when you find out that he was indeed the hold-up man you were looking for after all.

Let's say that they do have a warrant out against them, or that the guy actually is Joe Criminal. Wouldn't supplying their identification under those circumstances (in other words, the only useful ones) be self-incriminating? Isn't that something that the 5th says they don't have to do? Isn't being punished for not doing so compelled testimony?

You have no reasonable expectation of privacy with regard to your physical characteristics. For instance, the police really don't need a search warrant to take your blood in a drunk driving case. Nor do they need a warrant to take your picture if they're not detaining you. Most places get one anyway for blood, but I don't believe it's necessary constitutionally. I would argue that your identity fits the same bill. I don't think requireing people to ID themselves at a Terry stop, with the new ruling, is any more a violation of the 5th amendment than requiring them to ID themselves while being booked after their actions rise to the level of probable cause instead of reasonable suspicion.
 
Quartus:

I can't argue with that. But that's not what SCOTUS said, as I understand it. They said that the police can require identification for any reason. (Which means for NO reason!)

If I've got that wrong, someone please correct me.
You are wrong.

The Hiibel case articulates a very narrow rule:

"The question in today's Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court decision from the U. S. Supreme Court is: Once the police stop a person based on reasonable suspicion that he may be involved in criminal activity, may the police demand that he identify himself (backed by the threat of legal punishment should he refuse, or should he lie)?

The Court's answer: "yes," at least so long as the demand is "reasonably related to the circumstances justifying the stop"
(which will almost always be so)... ." http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2004_06_21.shtml#1087843514

It is not a general authorization to approach just anyone and demand "Papiern, Bitte" in your best european accent.
 
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You still have the problem of the rationale given, TBO. That is the most dangerous trend in SCOTUS this country has ever seen.



Well, I have to view this as a good thing, as long as it's not abused. Then, of course, it would be a problem.


Well, that's generally the case with government powers. They are fine as long as they are not abused. But history shows us that power is eventually abused. THat's why the Founding Fathers sought to RESTRICT the power of government. In some cases they tried to limit the EXERCISE of that power, in others they simply DENIED power to the government, knowing that merely limiting it was not enough.
 
You still have the problem of the rationale given, TBO. That is the most dangerous trend in SCOTUS this country has ever seen.
:confused: :confused: :confused:

You asked if you were wrong and I answered you.
confused.gif
 
Yep. And I didn't argue with your take on it. But the underlying rationale for the decision is the most important issue. It allows any imaginable abbrogation of the Constitution. THIS particular decision may not be horrible, but the PRINCIPLE is.

And the PRINCIPLE is always more important. Correcting a bad decision without correcting the underlying principle is like pulling the top off a weed while leaving the root.


Following the principle of government interests will result in a narrow decision being broadened, and broadened and broadened....

A little here, a little there, and then a little more.

That's how it works.

Boiled frog.
 
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