Police beating of suspect" in Philly cop shooting
- Thread starter JimR
- Start date
- Status
Apple a Day
New member
Mr X,
You forgot
4. Jump in and end up not only getting the fertilizer beaten out of you but get charged with assaulting an officer.
Two wrongs don't make a right but three rights make a left.
There are good cops and bad cops. The knuckleheads who relentlessly beat the crap out of the guy should lose their jobs. They seemingly can't shoot straight, can't safely and effectively control a suspect, and don't exercise good judgement. These sound like BAD COPS.
If a guy pulls a weapon on an LEO I have no problem with the cop shooting him until there's nothing left but a pink mist. I am for the death penalty. BUT when police engage in that kind of thing then they are no longer law enforcement officers - they are no longer enforcing the law - they are a street gang who give real cops a bad name.
My two copper Lincolns
------------------
Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
You forgot
4. Jump in and end up not only getting the fertilizer beaten out of you but get charged with assaulting an officer.
Two wrongs don't make a right but three rights make a left.
There are good cops and bad cops. The knuckleheads who relentlessly beat the crap out of the guy should lose their jobs. They seemingly can't shoot straight, can't safely and effectively control a suspect, and don't exercise good judgement. These sound like BAD COPS.
If a guy pulls a weapon on an LEO I have no problem with the cop shooting him until there's nothing left but a pink mist. I am for the death penalty. BUT when police engage in that kind of thing then they are no longer law enforcement officers - they are no longer enforcing the law - they are a street gang who give real cops a bad name.
My two copper Lincolns
------------------
Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Let's stick with the basics:
1) There's lots of evidence this felon committed several serious crimes
2) An officer was shot, which understandably angers fellow LEOs (and good citizens for that matter)
3) Many officers pull the perp from the stolen police cruiser
4) Once he is subdued -- and no longer poses a threat -- the police MUST cease any aggressive actions
5) The same law applies to all of us -- if I can't pursue and then beat or shoot a felon who threatened me (or my family) after "immediate, grave danger" ceases, neither can the police
I have great respect for the police and real sympathy for their "hot blooded" response to a criminal who wounds a fellow officer. However, we pay them to control their emotions and to abide by the law. When they fail to do so, they MUST be held accountable.
Based on the incomplete information now available, I'd fire several officers -- but no arrests -- and I'd lock up the BG for life for wounding a policeman in the line of duty.
1) There's lots of evidence this felon committed several serious crimes
2) An officer was shot, which understandably angers fellow LEOs (and good citizens for that matter)
3) Many officers pull the perp from the stolen police cruiser
4) Once he is subdued -- and no longer poses a threat -- the police MUST cease any aggressive actions
5) The same law applies to all of us -- if I can't pursue and then beat or shoot a felon who threatened me (or my family) after "immediate, grave danger" ceases, neither can the police
I have great respect for the police and real sympathy for their "hot blooded" response to a criminal who wounds a fellow officer. However, we pay them to control their emotions and to abide by the law. When they fail to do so, they MUST be held accountable.
Based on the incomplete information now available, I'd fire several officers -- but no arrests -- and I'd lock up the BG for life for wounding a policeman in the line of duty.
initially it appears to be a total fiasco...start to finish...subject caught in the act..overpowered officer...took officers gun..shot officer...stole police vehicle, multiple shots fired by perp and officers, all MISSED!!!..MULTIPLE times..control never established.. - too many individuals just trying to get into act..after the fact ..this department really needs help....any volunteers!!!
Sure I watched the video, sure the guy tried to kill a cop, sure he had to be restrained. But this isn't about any of that, this is about police officers who KNEW they were doing wrong but believed that they would not get into any sort of trouble because of it.
This type of thing is pernicious, you have to stamp on it real hard or it will run away from you before it can be stopped. Way too many of our LEO's remind me of those in Mexico and maybe Italy, that is, arrogant and prone to excessive force given half a chance.
I watched that video and was reminded of the film footage of packs of German soldiers prior to and during WWII beating and stomping on defenceless Jews in the streets because there was noone who had the guts to stand up and say it was wrong. Well I'm saying it's wrong and seeing a police chief defend such actions shames the nation and scares me more than I'd like to admit.
Mike H
This type of thing is pernicious, you have to stamp on it real hard or it will run away from you before it can be stopped. Way too many of our LEO's remind me of those in Mexico and maybe Italy, that is, arrogant and prone to excessive force given half a chance.
I watched that video and was reminded of the film footage of packs of German soldiers prior to and during WWII beating and stomping on defenceless Jews in the streets because there was noone who had the guts to stand up and say it was wrong. Well I'm saying it's wrong and seeing a police chief defend such actions shames the nation and scares me more than I'd like to admit.
Mike H
Suspect? I SUSPECT that if he took off in the LEOs' car, then he nearly iced the LEO.
If that was my comrade the scab had tried to ventilate I would have done something un-PC as well.
Watch some of your friends get killed then decide.
Those of us who can't tell the differance between the BATF and local SWAT tend to dislike all LEOs. They hold them to a standard they wouldn't hold themselves to.
A policeman is nearly murdered and people are all bent out of shape because the BG got roughed up.
Imagine what would have happened to this scab in the 1930s.
[This message has been edited by Shin-Tao (edited July 14, 2000).]
If that was my comrade the scab had tried to ventilate I would have done something un-PC as well.
Watch some of your friends get killed then decide.
Those of us who can't tell the differance between the BATF and local SWAT tend to dislike all LEOs. They hold them to a standard they wouldn't hold themselves to.
A policeman is nearly murdered and people are all bent out of shape because the BG got roughed up.
Imagine what would have happened to this scab in the 1930s.
[This message has been edited by Shin-Tao (edited July 14, 2000).]
Stupid, very stupid. These cops let emotion get the best of them, now they have probably screwed up their carreers, and the rest of their lives. All this does is lend credability to the argument that all LEO's are jack booted thugs. (This wasn't a BATF operation, was it??? 
)
------------------
Yeah, I got a permit to carry,it's called the friggin Constitution.---Ted Nugent
"Glock 26: 17 rounds of concealed carry DEATH comming your way from out of nowhere!!! THAT'S FIREPOWER, BABY!!!"
)------------------
Yeah, I got a permit to carry,it's called the friggin Constitution.---Ted Nugent
"Glock 26: 17 rounds of concealed carry DEATH comming your way from out of nowhere!!! THAT'S FIREPOWER, BABY!!!"
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JimR:
My quick impression - the guy deserves it, AND it's totally unacceptable behavior by the LEOs.[/quote]
Couldn't have said it better myself. I heard today the police chief says comparing this to Rodney King is outrageous, because unlike King, this guy was resisting arrest and was wanted for a felony. Hmmm, I somehow don't think the public's going to buy that distinction. The public will think "bunch of cops beating a guy senseless on video when they have him easily outnumbered and he's unarmed" - parallels pretty closely to Mr. King. So I think the press is going to have a field day on this one. To the extent it makes people think we should scale back LEO budgets, esp. federal, I guess that's a good thing for society
My quick impression - the guy deserves it, AND it's totally unacceptable behavior by the LEOs.[/quote]
Couldn't have said it better myself. I heard today the police chief says comparing this to Rodney King is outrageous, because unlike King, this guy was resisting arrest and was wanted for a felony. Hmmm, I somehow don't think the public's going to buy that distinction. The public will think "bunch of cops beating a guy senseless on video when they have him easily outnumbered and he's unarmed" - parallels pretty closely to Mr. King. So I think the press is going to have a field day on this one. To the extent it makes people think we should scale back LEO budgets, esp. federal, I guess that's a good thing for society
OK Folks, I live in SJ, 5 minutes from Philly, and this has been on the local news all day. The following is the latest REPORTED facts, as of the 6PM WPVI News (the same station that shot the video).
1 - The suspect, Thomas Jones car jacked a Chevy from an elderly couple on July 1st.
2 - Yesterday he was spotted driving the stolen car, and police gave chase.
3 - Thomas crashed the stolen car, and fled on foot.
4 - Police caught Thomas, dragged him to a police cruiser, and threw him into the FRONT (?) seat.
5 - While in the front seat he struggled with police.
6 - During the struggle Officer Livewell yelled that he had been shot (left thumb).
7 - Police opened fire on Thomas. Forty-Eight (48) 9mm casings where found at the scene. Thomas was hit FIVE (5) times, twice in the abdomen, as he fled in the police cruiser.
8 - Police caught Thomas in the stolen cruiser, pulled him from the car, and beat him.
Points to be noted:
1 - Some witnesses said that Thomas had shot Officer Livewell with his own service Glock, yet the police report that ALL their service guns are present and accounted for.
2 - Many witnesses say that Thomas was unarmed, and that officer Livewell was shot by another officer.
3 - The police do not know what kind of gun Thomas had - they don't even know if it was a revolver or semi-auto.
4 - Thomas' gun has NOT BEEN FOUND!
5 - ALL shell casings at the scene where 9mm, and it was also reported that ALL casings were from police guns. (So if Thomas did have a gun, it would have been a revolver).
6 - Thomas had 5 BULLETS in him, and was UNARMED when beaten and kicked by police (I can't believe that the guy is still alive).
Now don't get me wrong, Thomas is a career Hoodlum, with a record going back to 1988, and I feel no sympathy for him. Given his arrest record, he should be in jail, not on the streets of Philly. With that said, there is no excuse for what the police did, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is finally determined that Thomas was unarmed.
And some of you wonder why I don't trust LEOs in the North East.
Oh, one last thing. Why wasn't Thomas cuffed before being thrown into the cruiser, and why the FRONT seat?
[This message has been edited by Gusgus (edited July 13, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Gusgus (edited July 13, 2000).]
1 - The suspect, Thomas Jones car jacked a Chevy from an elderly couple on July 1st.
2 - Yesterday he was spotted driving the stolen car, and police gave chase.
3 - Thomas crashed the stolen car, and fled on foot.
4 - Police caught Thomas, dragged him to a police cruiser, and threw him into the FRONT (?) seat.
5 - While in the front seat he struggled with police.
6 - During the struggle Officer Livewell yelled that he had been shot (left thumb).
7 - Police opened fire on Thomas. Forty-Eight (48) 9mm casings where found at the scene. Thomas was hit FIVE (5) times, twice in the abdomen, as he fled in the police cruiser.
8 - Police caught Thomas in the stolen cruiser, pulled him from the car, and beat him.
Points to be noted:
1 - Some witnesses said that Thomas had shot Officer Livewell with his own service Glock, yet the police report that ALL their service guns are present and accounted for.
2 - Many witnesses say that Thomas was unarmed, and that officer Livewell was shot by another officer.
3 - The police do not know what kind of gun Thomas had - they don't even know if it was a revolver or semi-auto.
4 - Thomas' gun has NOT BEEN FOUND!
5 - ALL shell casings at the scene where 9mm, and it was also reported that ALL casings were from police guns. (So if Thomas did have a gun, it would have been a revolver).
6 - Thomas had 5 BULLETS in him, and was UNARMED when beaten and kicked by police (I can't believe that the guy is still alive).
Now don't get me wrong, Thomas is a career Hoodlum, with a record going back to 1988, and I feel no sympathy for him. Given his arrest record, he should be in jail, not on the streets of Philly. With that said, there is no excuse for what the police did, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is finally determined that Thomas was unarmed.
And some of you wonder why I don't trust LEOs in the North East.
Oh, one last thing. Why wasn't Thomas cuffed before being thrown into the cruiser, and why the FRONT seat?
[This message has been edited by Gusgus (edited July 13, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Gusgus (edited July 13, 2000).]
And what do we hear from the good Leos out there about this sorry state of police work. I know you don't like finger pointing on subjects of police tyranny. But to the police officers in Philly...bad, very bad.
I don't see how the news media mongers can just run a few words by the slackjawed pulbic on this story and then ho hum what's the next news item.
I don't see how the news media mongers can just run a few words by the slackjawed pulbic on this story and then ho hum what's the next news item.
Gusgus brings up several points I've heard people talking about. I'll address them.
(I wasn't there, of course, but...)
"1 - Some witnesses said that Thomas had shot Officer Livewell with his own service Glock, yet the police report that ALL their service guns are present and accounted for."
If Livewell's weapon was returned to him or confiscated then it would be "present and accounted for."
"2 - Many witnesses say that Thomas was unarmed, and that officer Livewell was shot by another officer."
First, never place too much trust in a half a dozen or so conflicting reports from startled citizens. Second, if Thomas shot the Livewell with Livewell's own gun, he would have been unarmed up until that point, and afterwards, as well. Third, it is possible that another officer shot Livewell by accident in a scuffle. Fourth, it is possible that Livewell shot himself during the scuffle.
3 - The police do not know what kind of gun Thomas had - they don't even know if it was a revolver or semi-auto.
The gunshot obviously resulted from someone's gun. As I mentioned above, there are four possibilties, two of which involve Livewell's weapon, and another a fellow officer's: 1. The BG shot Livewell with the Livewell's service pistol as reported. 2. The BG shot Livewell with his own, unaccounted for gun. 3. Livewell shot himself. 4. Another officer shot Livewell by accident.
"4 - Thomas' gun has NOT BEEN FOUND!"
So? See above.
"5 - ALL shell casings at the scene where 9mm, and it was also reported that ALL casings were from police guns. (So if Thomas did have a gun, it would have been a revolver)."
That could fit all of my four scenarios, at least three of them..
"6 - Thomas had 5 BULLETS in him, and was UNARMED when beaten and kicked by police (I can't believe that the guy is still alive)."
Two seperate issues: 1. He should have had more bullets in him, as far as I'm concerned, if indeed he shot Livewell.
2. The beating, while understandable, is totally unacceptable, and should be investigated and prosecuted if deemed necessary.
-------
I hope that isn't confusing. It's been a long day.
[This message has been edited by Erik (edited July 13, 2000).]
(I wasn't there, of course, but...)
"1 - Some witnesses said that Thomas had shot Officer Livewell with his own service Glock, yet the police report that ALL their service guns are present and accounted for."
If Livewell's weapon was returned to him or confiscated then it would be "present and accounted for."
"2 - Many witnesses say that Thomas was unarmed, and that officer Livewell was shot by another officer."
First, never place too much trust in a half a dozen or so conflicting reports from startled citizens. Second, if Thomas shot the Livewell with Livewell's own gun, he would have been unarmed up until that point, and afterwards, as well. Third, it is possible that another officer shot Livewell by accident in a scuffle. Fourth, it is possible that Livewell shot himself during the scuffle.
3 - The police do not know what kind of gun Thomas had - they don't even know if it was a revolver or semi-auto.
The gunshot obviously resulted from someone's gun. As I mentioned above, there are four possibilties, two of which involve Livewell's weapon, and another a fellow officer's: 1. The BG shot Livewell with the Livewell's service pistol as reported. 2. The BG shot Livewell with his own, unaccounted for gun. 3. Livewell shot himself. 4. Another officer shot Livewell by accident.
"4 - Thomas' gun has NOT BEEN FOUND!"
So? See above.
"5 - ALL shell casings at the scene where 9mm, and it was also reported that ALL casings were from police guns. (So if Thomas did have a gun, it would have been a revolver)."
That could fit all of my four scenarios, at least three of them..
"6 - Thomas had 5 BULLETS in him, and was UNARMED when beaten and kicked by police (I can't believe that the guy is still alive)."
Two seperate issues: 1. He should have had more bullets in him, as far as I'm concerned, if indeed he shot Livewell.
2. The beating, while understandable, is totally unacceptable, and should be investigated and prosecuted if deemed necessary.
-------
I hope that isn't confusing. It's been a long day.
[This message has been edited by Erik (edited July 13, 2000).]
Erik,
I prefaced my remarks with the statement that these where the facts "AS REPORTED". I too wasn't there, so I don't know what the true facts are. I'm still confused as to why he was able to struggle with the Police to begin with. When they finally grabbed him at the fence, why wasn't he cuffed? It's it common police procedure to immediately cuff a fleeing suspect? Why would you put an uncuffed suspect in the FRONT seat of your patrol car? If the news reporters are right (which I'm not saying they are), "Something is Rotten in Den... er Philly".
I prefaced my remarks with the statement that these where the facts "AS REPORTED". I too wasn't there, so I don't know what the true facts are. I'm still confused as to why he was able to struggle with the Police to begin with. When they finally grabbed him at the fence, why wasn't he cuffed? It's it common police procedure to immediately cuff a fleeing suspect? Why would you put an uncuffed suspect in the FRONT seat of your patrol car? If the news reporters are right (which I'm not saying they are), "Something is Rotten in Den... er Philly".
Having read the papers and watched the news, I saw no indication that the perp was put in the front seat by the cops. He is a hardened felon, with time served for armed robbery. He is also 6'2", 240 lbs., which makes him a handful for even four or five cops. I've seen worse beatings handed out by cops in a barroom brawl, for offenses a lot more minor than attempted murder.
All the perp had to do was surrender to police. Instead he attempted to murder two cops, engaged in two seperate high speed pursuits and resisted arrest with every means at his disposal. He was a crazed, gun-toting lunatic, not some innocent guy like Diallo.
I drive the streets of North Philadelphia every day for my job, armed with only a hefty folding knife (employer forbids firearms). That area is about 20 square miles of unmitigated ****hole. Two months ago, a cop in N. Philadelphia rousted some dazed crackhead from an abandoned building and took a shot to his vest for his trouble. Lucky for him, the vest stopped the slug. I hope he pounded the **** out of the scumbag who shot him. Anybody insane enough to take a shot at a cop need some remedial street education.
My hat is off to the Philly cops for giving as good as they got. All this bull**** about "the cops need more training" is just that--bull****. You can't train fright and primal rage out of a person, even a professional cop. Indeed, those cops who have to work N. Philadelphia need to be badasses or they wouldn't last a week.
Half of the tough talkers on this board wouldn't have the balls to drive though N. Philadelphia, yet they criticize the cops who have to deal with the scum infesting those streets. Try walking north up Front St. starting at Lehigh some night in North Philadelphia. Then you see if you wouldn't shoot/punch/kick first and ask questions later.
All the perp had to do was surrender to police. Instead he attempted to murder two cops, engaged in two seperate high speed pursuits and resisted arrest with every means at his disposal. He was a crazed, gun-toting lunatic, not some innocent guy like Diallo.
I drive the streets of North Philadelphia every day for my job, armed with only a hefty folding knife (employer forbids firearms). That area is about 20 square miles of unmitigated ****hole. Two months ago, a cop in N. Philadelphia rousted some dazed crackhead from an abandoned building and took a shot to his vest for his trouble. Lucky for him, the vest stopped the slug. I hope he pounded the **** out of the scumbag who shot him. Anybody insane enough to take a shot at a cop need some remedial street education.
My hat is off to the Philly cops for giving as good as they got. All this bull**** about "the cops need more training" is just that--bull****. You can't train fright and primal rage out of a person, even a professional cop. Indeed, those cops who have to work N. Philadelphia need to be badasses or they wouldn't last a week.
Half of the tough talkers on this board wouldn't have the balls to drive though N. Philadelphia, yet they criticize the cops who have to deal with the scum infesting those streets. Try walking north up Front St. starting at Lehigh some night in North Philadelphia. Then you see if you wouldn't shoot/punch/kick first and ask questions later.
cuerno de chivo
Moderator
Cops beating down someone because they are p*ssed off.
This is just like a bouncer(s) beating a man into a hospital, a coma or death instead of throwing him out of a bar.
Online support of it is just disgusting. There are smarter and better disciplined cops out there.
[This message has been edited by cuerno de chivo (edited July 13, 2000).]
This is just like a bouncer(s) beating a man into a hospital, a coma or death instead of throwing him out of a bar.
Online support of it is just disgusting. There are smarter and better disciplined cops out there.
[This message has been edited by cuerno de chivo (edited July 13, 2000).]
I love it. The same people who complain about the media twisting truths about guns have no problems believing the media when it is against LEOs. I would guess at least half the crap the media is reporting about this incident is outright lies. I was not there, neither was anybody else on this board. Think of that before you run to your keyboard to make claims of out of control LEOs. Our society is breaking down and there is enough blame to go around.
Are there bad LEOs? You bet, it would be impossible not to have some. But the LEOs in this country recieve little support from its citizens. People are so quick to condem LEOs I can't believe it. LEOs deal with people on a daily basis that would make most of our citizens wet their pants to be near, nevermind trying to arrest them. Next time there is an incindent like this try to put yourself in those LEO's shoes at that time and place, and then think of how you might have reacted.
If what the media is reporting is true, then they stepped over the line. But we will never know the truth, the truth doesn't sell newspapers.
[This message has been edited by mrat (edited July 14, 2000).]
Are there bad LEOs? You bet, it would be impossible not to have some. But the LEOs in this country recieve little support from its citizens. People are so quick to condem LEOs I can't believe it. LEOs deal with people on a daily basis that would make most of our citizens wet their pants to be near, nevermind trying to arrest them. Next time there is an incindent like this try to put yourself in those LEO's shoes at that time and place, and then think of how you might have reacted.
If what the media is reporting is true, then they stepped over the line. But we will never know the truth, the truth doesn't sell newspapers.
[This message has been edited by mrat (edited July 14, 2000).]
oberkommando
New member
I'm with you on this one X. Whos going to rush this angry crowd of cops to defend the "victim", If its the right thing to do!
Never would have got that far if they had shot him with 45's
As to the shell casings all being from the cops so he had to have revolver, maybe he had a contender?
Had the courts done their job in the begining, this scum bag would still be behind bars where he belongs. Based on previous discussions on this board most members would laugh with glee if the crowd in central park had done this to the "alleged" rapists, always seems to be different story when the cops carry out a little paul kersey justice.
Never would have got that far if they had shot him with 45's
As to the shell casings all being from the cops so he had to have revolver, maybe he had a contender?
Had the courts done their job in the begining, this scum bag would still be behind bars where he belongs. Based on previous discussions on this board most members would laugh with glee if the crowd in central park had done this to the "alleged" rapists, always seems to be different story when the cops carry out a little paul kersey justice.
- Status