Point Shooting
- Thread starter rbrgs
- Start date
The more "tools" we have in our toolbox the better prepared we are.I also point-shoot at close targets, in the sense that I don't look at the sights, but I don't "practice" it. I save the time it takes to change my focus from the target to the sights, but the gun is in the same place, at the same time, as it would be if I were going to use the sights. At close range, I just don't need to confirm that the sights are on, but they are.
I tend to have shaky hands so the technique that I've been using since childhood seems to work best for me at up to about 30-40 feet. That is I treat every target like a moving target and the pistol like I would a shotgun at a trap range and fire as the sights bear. It's very fast and accurate for me but I've been doing it that way for well over 40 years. Now that I have a super tack driver coming I'm trying to steady down and get good at conventional long distance aimed fire.
Deaf Smith
New member
Sure Hard Ball, I point with my sights.
Just cause people in the stop-n-rob videos stick their guns out and fire does not mean everyone should. And no, not everyone does fails to look at their sights. And keep in mind there are many ways to 'see' the sights from hard focus on the front sight to soft focus to 'shooting out of the notch' to flash sight picture.
Guys, practice using the sights and bringing the gun up to the same place each time, sights or no, and after a while you will see at closer ranges you can get good hits even if you can't see the sights. I really don't care how you focus on the sights, as long as you do use them.
It's all a matter of memorizing your forearm, wrist, and grip angle (and it's easy, just bring the gun up to eye level and look at the relationship between them.) Even one handed you will have that angle.
The only other type of fire you need is a retention/hip method for ranges that are so close you risk having the gun grabbed.
Just cause people in the stop-n-rob videos stick their guns out and fire does not mean everyone should. And no, not everyone does fails to look at their sights. And keep in mind there are many ways to 'see' the sights from hard focus on the front sight to soft focus to 'shooting out of the notch' to flash sight picture.
Guys, practice using the sights and bringing the gun up to the same place each time, sights or no, and after a while you will see at closer ranges you can get good hits even if you can't see the sights. I really don't care how you focus on the sights, as long as you do use them.
It's all a matter of memorizing your forearm, wrist, and grip angle (and it's easy, just bring the gun up to eye level and look at the relationship between them.) Even one handed you will have that angle.
The only other type of fire you need is a retention/hip method for ranges that are so close you risk having the gun grabbed.
Rob Pincus
New member
rbrgs,
Those types of observations, combined with experiences teaching people to shoot first with unaimed and then with sighted fire are what lead to the development of the approach we take in Combat Focus Shooting. The Balance between Speed & Precision is what determines the amount of deviation control needed for any given shot.. one hand, two hands, sighted, etc....
One of the recent CF Podcasts covered the idea of the BoS&P.
-RJPa
Those types of observations, combined with experiences teaching people to shoot first with unaimed and then with sighted fire are what lead to the development of the approach we take in Combat Focus Shooting. The Balance between Speed & Precision is what determines the amount of deviation control needed for any given shot.. one hand, two hands, sighted, etc....
One of the recent CF Podcasts covered the idea of the BoS&P.
-RJPa
Perldog007
New member
Twenty five years ago on my second occasion shooting a handgun and first qualification session we were told to crouch and "instinctively point" at the 7 yard line firing two shots and re-holstering. I will never forget how my first shot aimed at center mass hit center head.
It seemed so easy until you started pulling the trigger. Of course the early production Taurus copies of the model 10 didn't help, but nothing would have really.
I lived out in the country so I bought some ammo and practiced. When I could put them all inside the 8 ring at seven yards called it good enough.
Then I tried it with my left hand only one day. Good thing it was out and away....
Over the years this technique seemed to disappear when it came time to qual.
The flash sight picture at five yards or slide indexing was taught or front sight or notch only depending on who was talking. I never gave up practicing point shooting at close range. Two handed, speed rock, whatever the RO will allow.
Also agree on weak hand practice. Shot the whole modified ppc (7 to 25 yards) weak hand unsupported today. Perhaps humbling but like they say you never know....
I have had a ccw instructor to tell us to always try and bring the pistol up to eye level in a two handed hold and aim. He was an LFI graduate.
I am looking forward to another class next November. The instructor I want to study under is over yonder on assignment. Pretty curious as to the state of point shooting in his world. (teaches for Blackwater and others in the high risk field but also offers civilian classes)
All in all, have talked to people who have missed at arms length range. So perhaps practicing point shooting at least out to 10 feet or so is a good idea.
It seemed so easy until you started pulling the trigger. Of course the early production Taurus copies of the model 10 didn't help, but nothing would have really.
I lived out in the country so I bought some ammo and practiced. When I could put them all inside the 8 ring at seven yards called it good enough.
Then I tried it with my left hand only one day. Good thing it was out and away....
Over the years this technique seemed to disappear when it came time to qual.
The flash sight picture at five yards or slide indexing was taught or front sight or notch only depending on who was talking. I never gave up practicing point shooting at close range. Two handed, speed rock, whatever the RO will allow.
Also agree on weak hand practice. Shot the whole modified ppc (7 to 25 yards) weak hand unsupported today. Perhaps humbling but like they say you never know....
I have had a ccw instructor to tell us to always try and bring the pistol up to eye level in a two handed hold and aim. He was an LFI graduate.
I am looking forward to another class next November. The instructor I want to study under is over yonder on assignment. Pretty curious as to the state of point shooting in his world. (teaches for Blackwater and others in the high risk field but also offers civilian classes)
All in all, have talked to people who have missed at arms length range. So perhaps practicing point shooting at least out to 10 feet or so is a good idea.
Aimed fire is the way to go...
...until you're in a situation where you can't do it. Real-world shootings often happen under circumstances where the sights aren't used (dark, quick, close, stress, etc.), so, yeah, you need to be a point shooter, too.
Does anyone have any good point shooting drills? Someday, I hope to live somewhere I can go out in back and shoot until I develop Ed McGivern - type powers, like shooting tin cans multiple times in the air, but right now, I have to practice on public ranges where that type of thing is very constrained.
The one drill I do is to tape up the rear sight, then shoot from the ready into a sheet of paper at 7 yards. Because of range safety constraints, I can't rapid fire, nor shoot from the holster.
...until you're in a situation where you can't do it. Real-world shootings often happen under circumstances where the sights aren't used (dark, quick, close, stress, etc.), so, yeah, you need to be a point shooter, too.
Does anyone have any good point shooting drills? Someday, I hope to live somewhere I can go out in back and shoot until I develop Ed McGivern - type powers, like shooting tin cans multiple times in the air, but right now, I have to practice on public ranges where that type of thing is very constrained.
The one drill I do is to tape up the rear sight, then shoot from the ready into a sheet of paper at 7 yards. Because of range safety constraints, I can't rapid fire, nor shoot from the holster.
Niantician
New member
My Beretta 92 has dingy brown sights that i can't see even in daylight. But it's considered my backup and not my primary. So my work won't replace them. So I've always shot and qualified without using my sights. I don't score as well as the lucky guys on my team with night sights but I'm the first one done everytime. It's a great technique for stressfull situations or moving targets, and should be learned and used more than it is.
And by the way, when is having to use your backup not going to be a stressfull situation?
And by the way, when is having to use your backup not going to be a stressfull situation?
in simunation training (paintball replaces bullet, used in regular gun with just primer used) i'll use sights (if i'm playing the bad guy) and wait for my target to get within range to engage, but when they are close or i'm not able to be stealthy it's more point shooting as I don't have time and can't focus on sights, moving target and the whats around me. If I do subconsiously notice anything it's the front sight. On range, In low light situations when they put flashing lights on, it's point shooting since our range is 180 degrees. At all other times I practice using sights and that helps keep you on target. Muscle memory is learned through 1000's of rounds.
Enough rounds through your choosen firearm and you'll be able to hit center of mass more then the average. Not bull's eye's, but close.
Enough rounds through your choosen firearm and you'll be able to hit center of mass more then the average. Not bull's eye's, but close.
matthew temkin
Moderator
R1145--I consider point shooting to be the most vital skill that a shooter can own.
Shoot me an e mail at temkinmatthew@yahoo.com and I will send you a lesson plan that includes about 20 drills or so.
Meanwhile here is some interesting reading to whet your whistle.
http://www.gutterfighting.org/jellybryce.html
PS..I disagree that point shooting takes "thousands of rounds of muscle memory" or that it requires constant practice to maintain.
Interesting that Rob Pincus teaches point shooting before aimed fire.
Col. Applegate felt the same way and I have had some classes where virgin shooters were in attendence and things worked out very well for them.
PS..anyone else who wants the lesson plan has only to ask
Shoot me an e mail at temkinmatthew@yahoo.com and I will send you a lesson plan that includes about 20 drills or so.
Meanwhile here is some interesting reading to whet your whistle.
http://www.gutterfighting.org/jellybryce.html
PS..I disagree that point shooting takes "thousands of rounds of muscle memory" or that it requires constant practice to maintain.
Interesting that Rob Pincus teaches point shooting before aimed fire.
Col. Applegate felt the same way and I have had some classes where virgin shooters were in attendence and things worked out very well for them.
PS..anyone else who wants the lesson plan has only to ask
Slightly off-topic but in line with more information on Jelly Bryce is mention of Ron Owens' biographical book, Jelly Bryce, Legendary Lawman, for those interested in this unusually-gifted shooter.
Lightning-fast draw, point-shooting, deadly accuracy; such stuff as hasn't been recently emphasized or taught in any comprehensive sense until just very recently, and then only by a very few.
I like seeing the sights, if and when there's time and assuming you actually are able to see them. I also like extreme precision in shooting. I nonetheless also recognize the need for fast, adequately-accurate point shooting at close quarters, with no reference whatever to the sights. While the innate abilities of a Jelly Bryce are indeed rare, most folks steeped in the doctrines of The Modern Technique of the Pistol could and should usefully learn point shooting techniques too, IMNSHO.
Lightning-fast draw, point-shooting, deadly accuracy; such stuff as hasn't been recently emphasized or taught in any comprehensive sense until just very recently, and then only by a very few.
I like seeing the sights, if and when there's time and assuming you actually are able to see them. I also like extreme precision in shooting. I nonetheless also recognize the need for fast, adequately-accurate point shooting at close quarters, with no reference whatever to the sights. While the innate abilities of a Jelly Bryce are indeed rare, most folks steeped in the doctrines of The Modern Technique of the Pistol could and should usefully learn point shooting techniques too, IMNSHO.
Here's one drill I use (at our NRA affiliated club range where we can do anything that's safe--shooting at a public range sounds like a bummer):
Crush a couple of aluminum cans and toss them on a dirt berm at about chest level. Step back two paces, draw and fire, watching the target. You'll see where the bullet hits the dirt; as soon as you see it, shoot again. Trust the force, or your subconscious, or whatever. As soon as you can reliably hit the can, take a step back and repeat. Then I'll try two cans, alternating; this teaches you to hit it rather than just walking your shots in.
I taught a clinic on point shooting for club members several years ago; after a couple of hundred rounds, everyone could make COM shots from across the room distances without ever looking away from the threat.
Crush a couple of aluminum cans and toss them on a dirt berm at about chest level. Step back two paces, draw and fire, watching the target. You'll see where the bullet hits the dirt; as soon as you see it, shoot again. Trust the force, or your subconscious, or whatever. As soon as you can reliably hit the can, take a step back and repeat. Then I'll try two cans, alternating; this teaches you to hit it rather than just walking your shots in.
I taught a clinic on point shooting for club members several years ago; after a couple of hundred rounds, everyone could make COM shots from across the room distances without ever looking away from the threat.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Matt is one of a handful of folks here in the U.S. that worked hard, often in face of lots of ridicule, to keep point shooting alive during the rise of competition-driven Modern Technique shooting. And although it took a couple of decades, folks are now returning to the combat proven discipline of point shooting. About the only ones that downplay the importance of it any more are those who have little real fighting experience or those who feel that success in a range environment is more important than than actual combat.
I think that is where we started losing our way, Matt, when we began emphasizing sights first as opposed to target focus first. The old assumption, of course, was that if you could hit a target at 25 or 50 yards it would be easy to hit one at 15', so we taught the skills needed for the long-range shooting and figured the up-close stuff would take care of itself. Took a long time to learn better.
Why would you do that for close ranges when you can get better results faster with point shooting?
I'd suggest that is good advice, as one should always try to get the best shot off that is possible. But that is the key, IMO. Frequently you don't have the time, or there are environmental or physiological constraints that are in the way. That is when point shooting shines.
Perldog007
New member
^^^^ amen!
Let them laugh if they must. I am perfectly happy to blast away at my 10' target ("speed rock") while the experts chuckle over me wasting my ammo.
We all know of scenarios where point shooting would have carried the day. And everybody knows about the north hollywood shootout where nobody could deliver the goods at range.
I will work on both. Getting too old and slow to go and do, my goal now is get good enough to teach. When I get there I will be teaching both.
Let them laugh if they must. I am perfectly happy to blast away at my 10' target ("speed rock") while the experts chuckle over me wasting my ammo.
We all know of scenarios where point shooting would have carried the day. And everybody knows about the north hollywood shootout where nobody could deliver the goods at range.
I will work on both. Getting too old and slow to go and do, my goal now is get good enough to teach. When I get there I will be teaching both.