Point Shooting

whitefeather, EU/ED is all about speed. It is a the fastest way to get hits on board, at logical distances, that I have ever seen. It took me over five years and around thirty course to get a consistant 1.0 second drawstroke with a flash sight picture. It took me just a couple of months to get a .75 out of EU/ED

WTS it is a very fast draw stroke!

EU/ED works the exact same way while carrying at the 4:00, 3:00, appendix, small of the back, cross draw, and from a shoulder holster. It may turn into a "elbow out/elbow down, but it really is the same exact concept.

I used to carry at the 4:00, but I know carry appendix. Appendix is just plain fast and sure. But appendix is something that should be worked up to. It must be made sound with dry practice and airsoft before you go to it full time training.

Hopefully 7677 will chime in here. He has experience with the serpa.

Here is another of my articles to take into consideration.

About As Concise As I Can Get
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I had someone ask me how you point shoot with a rifle recently. So instead of running down a bunch of techniques, I just explained the concept of point shooting. As Matt recently pointed out, point shooting is not so much a bunch of techniques as it is a simple fluid concept.

This is about as concise as I get, while still explaining exactly what is done. The more that I think about it, the more that I like it. Here is what I wrote.

*******************************************************

Point shooting with a long arm is the exact same concept of point shooting with a handgun. The basics, all comes down to basic geometry. The advanced application, all comes down to hand/eye coordination that is the bi-product of the basic geometry.

Basic Geometry

Squaring up to the threat

Shooting from your centerline

Gun parallel to the ground

These three things are virtually fool proof. It is almost impossible to miss when these three basic geometry points come together. This is why people are able to point shoot the very first time that they do it.....when taught correctly.

But this is stance and grip dependent and does not bring out the real benefits of point shooting

Advanced Application

Is simply the hand/eye coordination that is a bi-product of the basic geometry.

The centerline is replaced by the visual centerline. Meaning that where ever you look, if the gun is on your visual centerline, you have taken care of the "squaring up" and the "centerline" portion of the basic geometry. The vertical alignment is now taken care of.

This leaves the horizontal alignment. The "parallel to the ground" is your "default." Hand/eye coordination is now a bi-product off of this known "default."

Just focus on the desired point of impact and your mind, eyes, and body will make the adjustments to get the hits.

It really is that simple!

This covers from line of sight all the way to "from the hip".....and everything in between.
 
This may not fit into the narrower parameters of the thread, but I think it is a good place to mention a bit of history. It is worth noting that for a long time those of us that advocated point-shooting in various forms were ravaged by so many trainers, including some of those who now try to present themselves as some sort of gurus of point-shooting. After literally years of being laughed at, told we didn't know what we talking about, and that point-shooting would never work, it is interesting to see folks like Matt Temkin and others who fought the good fight for literally decades finally being recognized. People like Matt, brownie, 7677, swacje41, and others have been reviled and even banned from various forums for advocacy of a very simple idea. That idea was, and still is, that combat/fighting skills and range/competition skills are not always the same, and we should look to actual combat to determine if something is effective or not. Let's all take a moment to remember these folks that spend so long as unrecognized voices in the wilderness as the true keepers of the flame that they are. Point shooting, one-handed shooting, integrated skills, etc. were being advocated long ago, but most were not willing to listen. That those are now part of the cutting edge of training is a lesson we need to remember.
 
David,
I thank you for the kind words and you are absolutely correct.

Whitefeather,
Roger contacted me and I'm working on arranging a class in PA for this September when I know the details I'll let you know.

I have mixed feeling about the Surpa good design when they work but I have seen a lot of problems with the holster holding up in classes and the most common problem is with the pin that holds the retention button in place working loose causing the retention button to fall off at the worst of times. I fixed four out of the five agent's surpa holster at the last class so I fixed the problem on the fifth holster before it happened.
 
White feather: EU/ED,, Think of the arm as a pitcher pump handle, as the hand grasp the weapon{you decide weather its a wrapped grip or finger pull}the wrist is locked and the forearm is tightened there by locking into the forearm, the hand is closed and a death grip is applied

As you draw the pump handle comes up drawing water,this is the elbow rising up alongside the body,NOT FLAPPING OUT IN THE AIR! EU!!!

ED: All of the rest of the movement is done from the shoulder and upper arm, Push the handle down: drop the shoulder slightly and force the upper arm down , as this is done the forearm and wrist are slid toward the front NEXT TO THE BODY!,Or as close as possible,

Now as the ELBOW contacts the rib cage the weapon is fore ward of the belt line and a shot is possible, you can continue to push fore ward and lock the elbow into the hollow of the side or into the front of the gut if skinny enough.

While this is done shots can continue to be fired.

The whole time this is happening you should have a death focus on the body part you wish to hit


Rodger,7767 and MATT can all give a way better demo then I can type it, but hope this gives you a point of reference.

One of the best ways I have seen this practiced came to me a week ago from a young man I showed it too.

He uses a semi with a laser, stands in front of a full Lent mirror, places a piece of tape at the belly button hight and chest high, draws and fires until he is hitting the taped marks.
 
Let's all take a moment to remember these folks that spend so long as unrecognized voices in the wilderness as the true keepers of the flame that they are. Point shooting, one-handed shooting, integrated skills, etc. were being advocated long ago, but most were not willing to listen. That those are now part of the cutting edge of training is a lesson we need to remember.
Click to expand...

Nice post Dave! I always talk about the "four of five guys that took on the world." That would be Matt, 7677, swacje41, and you Dave. I was there.....lurking.....keeeping my mouth shut....and learning what pearls of wisdom I could gleen through all of that static.

Brownie and I joined into the fight at the same time. By then the battles had already been fought and the war was as good as won. We just batted clean up.;)

Thanks to the "four or five guys that took on the world." You guys did it! Everyone is now desperately trying to play catch up.

But I will always remember where this all started at and who were the guys that made it happen.
 
I agree that point shooting is a good skill to have. Using it should only be to place fire on a very near threat. IMO, one should be firing with only one hand and seeking cover as they engage the closest threat, which should be no more than across the room distance 10 to 15 feet, this allows you to be able to move in any direction with relative safety.

Using a two handed style is a bad idea as it may require you to back away from the threat. It is far too easy to trip over something when the using two hands and retreating. Since distance is ones friend and should be sought, just as cover and/or concealment should, it is far easier to point in one direction and have the body faced in the direction of movement while using a pistol with one hand.

Point shooting IMO is only good for the short term, it buys time until you can catch up to the situation. Aimed fire is preferred. Most of the time there isn't going to be enough time though. I would use point shooting until I can transition to aimed fire.

Once and if you manage to come from behind the reaction curve you can transition to aimed fire and even go into a two handed technique. The classic two handed style is very stable and accurate. It is best used for preplanned attacks or a counter attack though. People carrying concealed are not going to be attacking so unless you are soldier or SWAT operator it isn't going to be likely that you start out with two hands. Chances are as a regular citizen, you will be reacting rather than acting.

Since one is at a disadvantage when reacting they need to cut as much time off of their presentation time. Having to raise your pistol into your line of sight might only take a split second, that tiny bit of time could mean life or death. One handed styles tend to be faster and more fluid, even though they are not as stable and accurate. Time is of the essence IMO.

Seems to me that some things can be over thought. The body tends to do what is natural. My father would tell me as a child. "Go with the flow son." That is the general idea with point shooting. A person when confronted with danger will naturally crouch. This natural reaction is to make the body a smaller target, people will also draw in their arms as well, to protect the body.

If you watch a boxer they do the same thing. Boxing is based on the natural reactions of the body and mind. Believe it or not boxing is one of the better forms of self defence, in hand to hand fights, simply because one doesn't have to overcome their natural reactions. Granted there are better martial arts forms. They are much harder to learn as one must do things that don't come as natural. It is the same with firearms as well.

IMO it is a good idea to learn as much as possible and incorporate those things that work best for oneself and exclude those that don't. There is no such thing as one style fits all. We are all different and will find that it is a case of different strokes for different folks.

Half the of the enjoyment in training is finding what works best for ones needs. Get all the information and training that you can. It could one day possibly save your life or a significant other.
 
Gentlemen,

I cannot thank you enough. The information in this thread is great and I have been practicing! The EU/ED sounded harder than it is. Assuming I am doing it right. I messed around with a very poor imitation of a 1911 Airsoft pistol. Very fast draw but I need to practice on my accuracy. I find it is very similar to what I had been doing it just is a tighter grip and no turning of the wrist. I carry on a 3:00 angle on a FBI Cant. To overcome this I had to slide the holster back to a 3:30, 4:00 position.

Thank you for the information on the Serpa. The reason I ask is because I do open carry and I want some type of retention when I do. My Fobus paddle has a retention on that makes it almost impossible to get it out of the holster unless you are pulling straight up from the holster. It is impossible to pull it out from any other angle. My second holster is a leather holster that has no retention and I only use when I conceal. The Serpa seemed the way to go, maybe I'll have to rethink or learn how to fix the deffect if I purchase one.

I will be honest in saying that a class on point shooting would be a dream come true. However funds and time will dictate much on my behalf. I would be willing to sell a rifle but time off work would be the next challange. So please let me know what, when, where and how much and I will see what I can do. I am very interested!

Again I want to thank everyone for the information. With practicing the techniques above and continued training I think I will have a much better chance of surviving a situation than before.
Thank you- Josh
 
Hello David and long time no hear.
Call me crazy, but I kind of miss those old GT days.
Internet life is almost boring these days.
Heck, it has been years sine I have been banned from a forum.
Thanks for the kind words and don't be a stranger.
 
Hi Matt. I took over the fight at GT when you and swac got tossed, and I don't know that the quality of participant has gotten much higher. Good to hear from you.
And Roger, thanks for the nice words, but I don't know that I belong in there with some of those guys (you included). Matt, you, 7677, swac, and so on have a lot more patience than I do when it comes to writing great missives on the internet. But the good thing is that we've all made a difference, I think, and hope we might have saved a few lives in the process.
 
WhiteFeather93,
If you decide to get one, let me know and I'll tell you how to keep it from occurring.

David,
I think you are right about the quality at GT...different faces but the SOS. I agree about the direction things are going and even though we all took a beating at times we all played a part and held the course. We all stuck to our guns even when some of our members were banned because people did not like the message but in the end the message got out.

Like Matt said...don't be a stranger.
 
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