point shooting from the hip ?

IMHO: "Point Shooting" ......

It's a step backwards, I believe, because:

to be accurate you need practice. Lots and lots of practice.
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.... and those resources (both time and ammo) could be better utilized getting better and faster while using the sights.


If you are already insanely fast and precise with the sights, and have nothing better to do with your time and money ..... well then, knock yourself out.
 
Thousands of presentations and trigger pulls.

To save money and have more practice time, get a laser bullet. You can draw and fire a flash of laser lite instantly telling you where the bullet would have impacted. This allows for excellent in home silent training. I can hit much smaller items with much greater consistency since becoming a dealer and playing with my inventory LOL.
 
jimbob86, what if the attacker is close enough that raising the gun to eye level increases the chance of his grabbing the gun?
 
As a shooter's technique improves, especially with handguns, the sights become as much a reference as an aiming aid.
For a good shootist, the sights become mostly important for correction.
In other words, they rely more on technique than sights.
The use of sights is more at the subconscious level.
 
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Again, what if the attacker is in position to attack the weapon?

Raising it to where sights are within view puts the gun in a weaker position for retention.

I prefer aimed fire or sight referenced fire, but it is not always practical.

Edit: Jelly Bryce advocated training at point fire. He won an estimated nineteen gunfights, so he may have had some idea what he was talking about.
 
Again, what if the attacker is in position to attack the weapon?

Raising it to where sights are within view puts the gun in a weaker position for retention.

I prefer aimed fire or sight referenced fire, but it is not always practical.
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Hitting from contact range isn't difficult to do consistently without a whole lot of practice. If shooting from the retention position is required, good hits can be achieved by even the most novice shooter, at least with my students anyway.

Be mindful of your weak hand when ever point shooting. Train a good restiing place for your weak hand. We use either the high knife block open hand out or the hand across the chest. Just be careful.
 
This Means War....

A recent action comedy with "point" or "CQB type" shooting is This Means War.

www.imfdb.org
The main characters, highly trained CIA officers, use SIG P series pistols.

Clyde
 
Hip shooting is effective at 1 yard or so, anything past that, unless you are a trick shooter you should bring the gun up to point should and point as Kraig says.
 
daddyo, if they never train to shoot from hip or CQB, and if under stress most people revert to what they have (repetitively) trained, then odds are they won't consider retention but will push the gun toward the sighted fire position - even when that may be unwise.

So, even if they can score hits with minimal practice, there is still value in practicing.
 
I am not trying to be negative on this whole thing, but please try an IDPA match at a local range. And you will see that aimed fire is a whole lot more effective than point shooting. You have to prove it for yourself.

I am what I consider a poor shot with handguns and even I can do 8 bad guys in 20 seconds even with hostages involved and ZERO points down (no misses, no hostages shot). 18 shots required on each stage. Someone that is really good can do it in about 12 seconds or less.

Try it both ways in a match, first point shooting and then try it as aimed fire and see what you do best.

Good luck
Jim
 
Jim243, once again - I fully agree using a sight picture is more accurate. My concern is about those situations where the BG is at bad breath distance, and speed and retention are harder challenges than accuracy is.
 
On a side note, sounds like your IDPA RO's aren't as twisted as ours. Ours set up courses of fire using swinging targets, swinging hostages, hallways with BGs and hostages behind doors... And for most of those, point shooting would probably not work so well.
 
I am not sure of what is meant by "hip shooting" (shooting at a hipster?) as I never saw or heard of anyone firing a gun held against his or her hip. At one time, I did a lot of shooting in which I held the gun at or a bit above my waist level, using the gun itself as a "pointing finger." I don't know if I can still do it, but at that time I could "roll" and bounce a can at about 25 feet, hitting it almost every shot, firing fast double action K-22). I did not really consider that practice for defensive shooting, just plain old fun. Still, I am pretty sure I could have put every shot in a chest area if necessary. I later did the same with a .38 and .357, but the fun was more expensive.

Not an ideal system if there is concern about weapon retention, but if the opponent is close enough to make that a problem, he is so close that any shots are or are close to being contact shots and the word "aiming" has no meaning.

Jim
 
On a side note, sounds like your IDPA RO's aren't as twisted as ours.
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They are!! (LOL) The worst is BG behind hard cover. Poppers are no problem, but I hate swingers (I'm lucky to get one hit on them), movers are not too bad. We did a house clearing on one stage that I said "Oh what the hell" and dumped 3 mags on (LOL) in 35 seconds (good thing I did not get a procedural on that), now that was fun. My buddy said it looked like I was using a machine gun on that stage. (LOL)

Have fun, life's too short.
Jim
 
Working on shooting from retention possition should be done at near contact distance. If one is in a situation of such nature, the shot from retention position is more of a get off of me move. If I am firing as such I do so with the gun in line to the center line of my body. One shot from retention position, as I am side stepping, and bringing the gun up for a COM shot.

Just remember that you are going to be held accountable for every shot you fire in a SD situation.
 
This was done without aiming, the trigger guard was against my hip. 4" S&W Mod 15.



CoronerDiagram.jpg


Supplement-1.jpg
 
daddyo, if they never train to shoot from hip or CQB, and if under stress most people revert to what they have (repetitively) trained, then odds are they won't consider retention but will push the gun toward the sighted fire position - even when that may be unwise.

So, even if they can score hits with minimal practice, there is still value in practicing.
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Normally I would agree but in this particular scenario I would believe otherwise. Before I ever began learning how to properly use a firearm for self defense, I didn't need to know that while fighting off a bad guy or drawing on someone at arms reach, I wasn't going to push my pistol out 21/2 feet on a bad guy standing 2 feet away. As I began to practice different scenario's with friends and coworkers, without prior training mind you, I automatically pulled the trigger the instant the guns muzzle was on the bad guy. One scenario was a bum rush from a holstered gun (kinda like a tueller drill). In my desperation to get that shot off, I shot from my side many of the times. Just a frantic attempt to drop the hammer before full contact was made which meant I lost. So I inadvertently shot from the hip so to speak. I didn't know gun retention was even a practiced tactic much less the benefits of it LOL. So I'm not so sure that if someone is being attacked at ultra close range, that they would revert back to the training and stretch those arms out exposing the firearm.

Having seen a few police shooting video's it seems the closer the threat the faster the trigger is pulled. Not in followup shots but from the draw/presentation.

I believe that your position is probably the wiser however. Better to have and not need.
 
I've read that in many cases the first (and sometimes second) shot goes into the ground, due to extreme stress and sympathetic flexing of the trigger finger as the gun comes up. I could easily believe that.

Meanwhile, tried a bunch of comparison testing yesterday with a P7 PSP, shooting from 3 yards, one target with the gun pointed from just above belt level, the other with the gun pushed somewhat forward and just at the bottom edge of peripheral view.

Both targets had most rounds clustered along or near the vertical line of the spinal column. The one shot with gun in view had less vertical stringing, probably over twice as tight as the other. Most hits were in the (IDPA) -0 circle or just below it, in the top of that portion's -1.

The one shot from belt level had almost all hits in the -1 area of an IDPA target, with some in the lower half of the thoracic -0, and some in the lower -3.
 
Rex Applegate taught and advocated for this technique. Not saying that is good or bad, only that it goes back a ways and isn't without its influential adherents.

My only issue with point shooting is that it's essentially useless at anything but contact range, particularly if the adversary is moving.
 
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