pocket pistol vs. broad side of a barn

A

Apple a Day

New member
I need some info on pocket pistols. If you own one then , please, tell me what size groups you get and at what ranges . Also include the name of the weapon and caliber. If you are atypical (illegitimate son of William Tell, have been shooting since the Chinease invented fireworks, or were shooting using only your feet) then let me know what a typical shooter might expect.
Many thanks.

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Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[This message has been edited by Apple a Day (edited July 25, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Apple a Day (edited July 25, 2000).]
 
I consider myself an advanced novice.

With a Ruger .357 Mag revolver, I can hit a pistol target everytime at 15 yards. I don't group well, but I'm working on it.

I have a Colt .380 Pony Pocketlite. As far as I can tell, the sights are way off. From 15 yards I can hit the barn, but barely, and I could probably group better blindfolded. :)

With a Titan .25, I can hit a 100 yard rifle target every time from 15 yards.

In fairness, these small guns are made to be used from 7 yards in, and I have yet to practise at those ranges. The situations they're designed for are close in reactive and defensive point and shoot, rather than deliberate aim and fire.

Rick
 
Above Average
pocket Jennings J22,22cal 0 to 15 ft. a 5 inch group
pocket Raven 25 auto 0 to 15 ft. a 12 in group
Now with my ruger security 6,4 inch barrel, 0 to 50 ft. about 3 inches. Just need bigger pockets
 
Miltex Special Edition Makarov 9x18, 95gr russian ball, 2.5-3.0 inches at 7 yds, braced two hand Weaver Stance, slow fire.

Beretta Bobcat 32acp HP, 6 inch, 7yd slow fire, two hand hold free standing.
 
I'm not sure if you count a 2" snubby as a pocket pistol, but I can get a group the size of a large plate at 25yds.
 
I'm sure my .22 NAA mini-revolver shoots excellent groups... if only I could find them. :)

However, I do have a little Beretta 21A (.22) and a nearly identical Beretta Bobcat (.32ACP) that actually shoot quite remarkable groups for their little size (5-7" at 10 yards).
 
2" .38/.357 snubbies generally 2" at 20ft single action, 3" double action.

Keltec P11, slow fire, 2" at 20ft.

Keltec P32, 4" at 20ft.

Colt Government .380 1.5"

Llama Micromax .380 3"

By contrast, Glock 17/21, Beretta 92fs, USP45, 4" and 6" S&W revolvers yield a single sub-1" hole. Makarov is also one hole SA, 2" DA. Colt Hammerless .32 (1908) was also a one-holer.

My take is that if you can hit a paper grocery bag reliably and fast at 30ft, you are in business. If not, practice some more or (less likely) get a better gun.
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Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://dd-b.net/RKBA


[This message has been edited by Oleg Volk (edited July 26, 2000).]
 
shooting a long time.
S&W 36-2inch.3 inches at 7 yards
Bob

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Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
Mas Ayoob, in preparing to testify at a trial as to how far a snub was a threat took several exemplars ( Chiefs Special, Detective Special, Charter ? ) and shot them with a randomly selected box of ammo. I believe one placed 2 shots on a man sized target at 100 yards, another 3 on target and the last all six. The perpetrator's attorney tried to get Ayoob to admit that his his client wasn't a danger to the victim at twenty five yards with a snubby, and Ayoob demurred. Asked to back up his position, he produced the three 100 yard targets.

Back when I was capable of Distinguished Master scores on the PPC course, I could usually put 3 or sometimes 4 out of 6 shots on a gallon milk jug at over 80+ yards with one particular 2" 22/32 kit gun and federal ammo. Call them 12" groups. With a High Standard bull barreled match pistol, 5 to 6 inch groups depending on the day. That was with 25 year younger eyes. I'd guess virtually any quality Colt, Smith, or Ruger snub should shoot close to a one foot group at 50 yards with ammo it likes from a rest.
One class I took, the instructor walked down the line, took a glance at the hole in my 7 yard target made with a 2 1/2" Mod 19, and did a double take as I put the 6th shot into the same hole.

You asked about pocket pistols. I have a 25, a 32, and 2 380's I haven't got around to trying out. If they don't keep their groups at 10 yards, or maybe 15, small enough to take cranio-ocular shots consistently, they are gone.
 
Effective range for the .380 is about seven yards. Much past 25 yards and you're out of range with most any handgun -- save a 44 Mag or similar.

My "target standard" for defensive handgun shooting is the 9" paper plate (100 for a buck most stores).

The "drill" for defensive shooting is 7 yards point and shoot. Don't aim. You're not going to have time to aim in a defensive situation.

Bench rested at 7 yds the 4" bbl. pocket pistols (.380, 9mm, 40 S&W) are going to group in the 3" range edge to edge on the holes -- more or less.

Aimed single action, Weaver stance with a Smith 38 Spc. at 25 yds . . . six for six ON the plate is a good group. Braced off a "bench" it gets down to a few inches.
 
Longtime shooter, moderate skill:

I can hit a man sized target at 100 yards with my 4" .44 5 out of 6 shots, standing, single action.

I have shot under two inches at 25 yards with same rig, same way. I would not hesitate to take a shot at a still hog at 50 yards from a rest.

Glock 19: 15 yards 3-4 inches at 1 round per second, 17 shots

Slow, deliberate fire at 25 yards: 4 inches or a bit more

Jennings .22: 15 yards 8-12 inches for 7 rounds
 
Can do 2 inch gruops with both my Glock 27 And Colt Officer .45 at 50 feet. Several months age I was at the Storm King ranch range where on their rifle position they have a bright orange metal plate about 250 yards up the side of the mountain. It took slightly longer than one second from the firing of the round to hearing the impact. I was able to hit the plate 3 to 4 times per magazine. A fellow Glock user was able to hit it one time per magazine -this is with a short barreled Glock 27. I estimate the plate was half the size of a 55 gallon drum but am not sure. I had to raise the gun what seemed like 6" from where the sights were on the target (not 6" above the target). Was going more by feel rather than by sights.
 
Any decent made pistol or revolver will group much better than usually credited. Rusty S, beemerb and Oleg Volk all share with me the advantage of experience and the disadvantage of older eyes. Still, my 1908 Colt Pocket Pistol (that's what they called them) shoots four inches at 15 yards.
My only other "pocket pistol" is a S&W M10 cut down to just in front of the extractor lug. With Federal HydrShok 38 Specials it groups about 2.5 inches at 25 yards, when I'm holding up my end.

Some of the ultra small guns have poor (hard to see) sights as well as heavy triggers. Not condusive to fine target work... Still, practise makes perfect.

Elmer Keith once said that long range revolver shooting was a matter of luck. But the more you knew your revolver and ammunition, the better one's luck gets.

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Archie
 
I guessing since its been a while since I timed my shots but for 5 shots...

*&* 38 Bodyguard and SP101 (357mag) all take about 3 seconds at 10 feet, 5 seconds at 20 feet and 7 seconds at 40 feet. With my Kimber Ultra Carry its about twice as fast.

When practicing defensive shooting I use 6" x 8" cardbord pieces placed on the chest area of IDPA target and only shots inside this cardboard counts. I don't use bullseye target since I don't expect BG to be wearing such shirt.
 
I'm finding my Beretta Tomcat .32 to be surprisingly accurate. I can hit within a 6" circle probably 5 or 6 times out of 7 at 12 yards, and I'm no great marksman. With my NAA Guardian (now sold), I'd be lucky to be able to do that at 12 feet.

With the other gun I own that I'd call a pocket gun (S&W 642, 2", .38 Sp), I'm not as good. I need to work on my revolver shooting.

With the Glock 27 or Kahr MK9 (definitely not pocket guns, IMO), I'm much more accurate, probably 3" at 12 yards with the Glock and a little bigger with the Kahr.

By comparison, with the bigger Glocks (17, 21, 30) or the Beretta 92, 2" or less groups at 12 yards.

Of course, all of these estimates assume a flier or two, on a day with a favorable wind, when the sun's not in my eyes, and my lumbago isn't bothering me, etc.
 
My old FI .380 (made by Star, looks like a shrunken 1911) was pocket-sized and at 10 yards would put a full clip into a 6 inch circle. Not exactly Camp Perry material, but at the usual range for street agressives it would get the thoracic cavity. I sold it when I decided that the .380 didn't have enough whack-em to be relied on against the bad guys.

I shot a friend's 2 inch J-frame S&W .38 and did better, may be a 4 inch circle.
 
First time out with a Kel-Tec P-32 I shot one box of ammo standing at 7 yds. The first 43 were slopped 6" right and 6" low. The last seven, after changing my grip, went an inch right into a nice 2 1/4" vertical string 1 1/2" wide. John
 
I consider myself a competent shooter.

My Beretta Tomcat is my smallest gun and I can shoot a 4" group at 7 yards and a 6 in group at 15 yards with it and 60 gr Gold Dots slow fire.

Rapid fire at 7 yards = 6 in group.

2" Taurus Mdl 605 2-3 inch group at 15 yards slow fire

2 in group at 7 yards slow fire & 3-4 inch group at 7 yars rapid fire.

I define rapid fire as full cylinder (5 shots) or full mag (7 shots) in under 6 seconds.
 
Thanks, keep 'em coming,
I am looking at some small pistols for carry and plinking but didn't know if there was a point where accuracy would suffer to the point of making it a waste of time. I did a search and found reviews of individual weapons but not grouping sizes. I think I have a better picture now. :)
One problem for me is hand size- mine are fairly large. I borrowed a friend's nub .38 spl, which fits him perfectly well and which he carries on a daily basis. For me it was like holding a cannon with tweezers. I blew the taget's kidneys out and chewed up his shoulder @ 25 ft but wasn't happy with it. Okay, I could give a bad guy renal failure and knock the chip off his shoulder, perhaps. With my Makarov the groups fit easily in the palm of my hand. I know a lot of that is practice but I just wasn't comfortable with the snub. Every time I pulled the trigger I expected to find the revolver somewhere behind me, having slipped out of my hand and flipped over my shoulder. I will definitely have to find something that fits my hand.
I love my Makarov but getting decent ammo cheap around here is a "hit or miss" hassle- pun intended. I'd rather buy a new gun that convert it to .380, no flame intended. Maybe something smaller just for fun.
Thanks again to everyone for the data. I'm always trying to learn more. :D

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Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
 
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