PM and SWAT

WIldcard, we can all post incidents. But when you take however many incidents and stack them up against Law Enforcement as a whole... Well, the percentage wouldn't even make a bump in the road.

So, don't even think to make this a cop-bashing session. You won't like the results.

The topic is the Militarization Of The Police.

Whether that's good or bad, true or false, is what should be discussed. It is possible to discuss this, without the rancor that has been prevalent lately.

Thank you Sheriff Campbell for taking the time to share with the members of this forum, the uses by which your department employs the vehicle.
 
We see the V150 LAPC as a piece of military equipment. Doesn't mean that the police who use it are behaving like the military. It gives the police an advantage by using it as a shield and probably lead to lesser lives lost in Swat situation. If it saves one life that is enough.

I don't understand the tirade on the M16s. I imagine a lot of us here at TFL have military style weapons such as the AR-15 and others in our possession. So are we dangerous too? Some of us probably have .50 cal rifles :eek: Are we threats to our fellow citizens? Of course not because we use them responsibly and in accordance with the law.

As far at he remark about a town having three red lights and seven M16s, rural America isn't what it used to be. I remember living in the country as a small boy. The local church doors were always unlocked 24/7. Now those doors are locked securely. If I was a sheriff it might be better to have those M-16s and be trained to use them rather than being caught in a fight wishing you had them.

As Sheriff Campbell said its not the military items that make a difference but the leadership both within the department and the elected leadership of that political subdivision. The ethical standards and policies they maintain and enforce. The training they do on a regular basis is also important.

with 9/11 and all the changes due to terrorism, the local police are now considered as first responders against terrorists. I believe the terrorists will be very well prepared for what they have to do. Our law enforcement should be prepared also.
 
This is an excellent thread. I'm going to stick it at the top of the board for a few days. Let's keep the level of discussion upon the high road, shall we?

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There's a big difference between tactics and tools; and there's a big difference between the tactics a police department uses and military tactics. The tools may be similar or even the same, but the manner in which they are employed makes all the difference.

Once you’ve got a cool tool, you kind of want to use it. That’s true whether it’s a pneumatic drill, a laser level or an armored fighting vehicle...

The subtle effect is also real: Dress like a soldier and you think you’re at war...
The writer is saying that once you give police M16s and APCs, they'll think they're soldiers and go around killing people. That's like saying everyone on this board who owns an AK47 and body armor is going to start robbing banks in North Hollywood. :rolleyes:

It's about leadership and tactics, and the intention behind the use of these tactics. It's not about tools.

-Dave
 
I think the primary concerns of most citizens should be the proper and appropriate use of SWAT teams.

As pointed out in the original article, the raid on the farmer and his family was due to a mistaken address from the anti-child-porn operation. Do we really need to send a SWAT team to the home of someone dealing in child-porn? Lacking knowledge or probable cause of the person holding a child hostage, I think that's somewhat dubious.

Certainly there are dangerous and violent people for whom a SWAT team is an appropriate tactic. But that decision should be made based on the same kind of solid police work that's used to build a case in the first place. Storming the house of a 59 year old grandmother because she purchased her "medicinal marijuana" at a quasi-legal co-op and is thus labeled a "drug user" is absurd. Using a SWAT team to enter a suspected meth-lab or to arrest members of a known violent street gang are appropriate, however. SWAT teams should be used when there is no other viable, lower-risk solution, in my view.

Most importantly, there needs to be strict accountability for errors and mistakes as well as duplicity by falsifying the basis of a (no-knock) warrant, including omissions of relevant information. The standards should be high to avoid just these kinds of problems.
 
Is there some kind of threat level matrix that triggers the SWAT Team with or without command authorization? Or does it merely have to be ordered/authorized by someone in a command position with the authority to do so, or a combination of the above?

Law enforcement officers are constrained by the states use of force laws which apply to citizens and usually contain provisions for law enforcement officers due to the nature of their job. I assume that these same laws apply to SWAT Operations at the local, county and state levels. Which means you cant run in and shoot the place up or bomb it. You can meet deadly force with the threat of deadly force or deadly force. This might vary from state to state.

Does the state require certification for your SWAT Team? Are there certain training criteria that SWAT instructors and members have to meet to be certified?
Or can some places just throw some department members on the SWAT team, buy them uniforms and weapons and use it?
 

Thirded. Great info, great insight.

I don't understand the tirade on the M16s. I imagine a lot of us here at TFL have military style weapons such as the AR-15 and others in our possession. So are we dangerous too? Some of us probably have .50 cal rifles Are we threats to our fellow citizens? Of course not because we use them responsibly and in accordance with the law.

Yeah, I've never understood this either. I think every deputy in our local Sheriff's department rolls with an AR15/M16 in his cruiser, and I see nothing wrong with that. I'd certainly rather see them have it and not need it than vice versa...and I can imagine situations (even in a rural area) where they might need it.

A police department owning a few pieces of "military" hardware is not, IMO, an issue. Even an APC, as CPT Campbell pointed out, has some very valid purposes for a police department...and questioning why the police would need an APC is no different than questioning why a common citizen would need an AR15.

It's all about when and how these things are used.

And really, I don't mind the idea of having a quasi-military unit within a police department...from what I understand, that's the whole purpose of SWAT. To provide a military-style response when one is necessary (and it is necessary in rare instances). Again, better to have and not need.

BillCA said:
Certainly there are dangerous and violent people for whom a SWAT team is an appropriate tactic. But that decision should be made based on the same kind of solid police work that's used to build a case in the first place. Storming the house of a 59 year old grandmother because she purchased her "medicinal marijuana" at a quasi-legal co-op and is thus labeled a "drug user" is absurd. Using a SWAT team to enter a suspected meth-lab or to arrest members of a known violent street gang are appropriate, however. SWAT teams should be used when there is no other viable, lower-risk solution, in my view.

Meth lab? I dunno...that would definitely require a "specialized" response, but they're dangerous in a way other than the "bad buys with bullets" sense. Assuming that the suspects aren't deemed a high (relatively) risk of violence, I wouldn't say SWAT is necessarily the proper response. Especially since unlike you're local weed dealer, it's kinda hard to flush a whole meth lab down the toilet.

Again, I have to say there is no problem with the general idea of SWAT teams, even heavily armed SWAT teams. And once deployed, you have to expect them to act like SWAT teams. I just think the more reasonable among us have to question the decisions being made at higher levels of when to use them...I think too often their use injects violence into a situation that otherwise wouldn't require it.
 
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Aside from the towns that get SWAT teams just because they can get the money for it - and anyone who tries to say that this sort of thing doesn't happen with things that are provided free of charge if asked for is dead wrong - what about the places that have multiple teams, some of which that only compete in SWAT competitions?
 
Thanks for taking the time to here respond, Ken. I know you have a heavy schedule.

IMO, many folks' idea about how an armored vehicle is used is formulated from viewing movies like Die Hard. Then again, if Bruce Willis had taken a course on how to use a firearm from someone like Sheriff Campbell, the movie would have only been about ten minutes long.
 
While reading this thread, I notice that LEO's like to refer to the citizens as "civilians". That is a military mindset.

Looks like a soldier, acts like a soldier. Must be a soldier... but not in this case.

I served and knew that as a soldier I was beneath the "civilian". Even though the general mindset in the Army is that we soldiers are better the civilians.So how is it that police like to think they are above the "civilian" and a special class that gets to have things that we citizens have to jump through hoops to obtain?

You guys are civil servants. We are your employers.

Militarism of the police makes us nervous, as gangs make you nervous.

Perhaps, when not in use, SWAT could be used for public relations. Show the people how you will use the military equipment in demonstrations. That may alieviate that " us vs them" mindset we see today. The best way to bust the bad guys is to have citizens that help out because they understand. Too many people are starting to distrust the police.
 
Captain (and soon to be Shire Reeve) Ken said:
Leadership and ethics are what is important here.


That's really the whole issue, summarized nicely.

Fortunately for us, there are other leaders with leadership skills, ethics, morals, and integrity similar to Captain Ken. Unfortunately for us, there are too many (one is too many) who lack most or all of those attributes, whether due to deficiency of character or ignorance.

The original article raises some important issues, although nothing we've not seen before. The failure is in the examples and the accompanying analysis. These questions need to be asked (repeatedly), but the questioners need to bring the same level of integrity to the discussion (or debate) as they expect from those under their scrutiny. Unfortunately for us, that is also often lacking.

I am personally troubled by the para-military mindset that is demonstrated by far too many law enforcement officers. I do not, however, begrudge them the tools they need to do the job, with the exception of items that are not accessible to other civilians (i.e. civilians who are not law enforcement officers). Armored cars used as the Boone Co. response team uses theirs are not only not a problem, they are a demonstratable benefit to local residents. And you can't beat the price!

However, the thing (as well as a lot of other tools) could easily be used in an abusive manner, and again we're back to Capt. Ken's concise and poignant summary: Leadership and ethics are what is important here. If we could rest assured that all administrators and persons in leadership roles could be trusted, this all would be a non-issue. I don't think we can.

So I'm glad when the issues themselves are raised. I don't like it when facts are used in a misleading way (like the original articles portrayal of the Boone Co. armored vehicle), regardless of the agenda. Intellectual dishonesty is reprehensible in all its forms. When combined with ignorance, it's even more dangerous.

I also appreciate Capt. Campbell's professional and reasoned response here. He addressed the issues without being overly defensive or devolving to derision and condescension. I am not surprised though, as I know he is a good police officer, a good leader, and a good person whose good intentions are matched by good results. When you have that, you can withstand the scrutiny and even welcome it.
 
Thanks, Bill. I think that makes twice for me in 2006 when I wasn't completely wrong about something. ;)

I feel your pain with California. I lived in the Bay Area for four years. I will never go back there.
 
It's a shame it wasn't in Legal and Political. It makes an EXCELLENT legal point, designed exactly for that forum.

I've been saying almost the exact same thing for years and years.
 
Regarding the comment that police are using tactics that more resemble raiding a house in Iraq:
Here's one for you: many military units are using tactics that police came up with: SWAT teams have been on the forefront of interior tactics, room clears, even surround and call outs. Did you know that some tier I units are using surround and call-outs for targets where bombers are belived to be hiding?
CQB tactics are taught to the military from SWAT teams. Why? SWAT teams do it a hell of a lot more. The TTPs are more refined, shoot/no-shoots are are drilled ad nauseum, etc. I know b/c I have taught the military. The Marine's CQB was initially taken from LAPD. Since changed, but the cross training is still exists.
If the police were using military tactics used in Iraq, you wouldn't see many cops rushing into houses. You would see prepatory indirect fires, followed by a supporting base of MG fire and frags, followed by an explosive breach.
Just b/c you see teams dressed like a soldier, utilize weapons that soldiers use, and are called "tactical," this does not define a soldier. The UCMJ does that. Local, state and federal laws define the police officer.
Tactics change, but principles do not: Principles that police use, cover, concealment, numerical superiority, command and control, surpise, speed (whether slower or faster), are principles used throughout the world since a caveman threw a rock.
 
BreacherUp, good points. Only one I'd reply to:

Just b/c you see teams dressed like a soldier, utilize weapons that soldiers use, and are called "tactical," this does not define a soldier. The UCMJ does that. Local, state and federal laws define the police officer.

The UCMJ defines a soldier in the most technical sense...however, there is also a mindset to being a soldier. It's possible to be actively enlisted in the military and not have this mindset, and it's also possible to be a civilian and have it.

SWAT teams generally have this mindset. From everything I've read and heard, when they conduct an entry they are basically assaulting an objective. They're scanning for threats, and any threats instantly become "enemy" and are generally neutralized.

This is not in and of itself a bad thing. Again, it's all in when they are used. And the more often we use them, and the wider range of situations we use them in, the more often entirely innocent citizens (and otherwise nonviolent offenders not guilty of capital crimes) will find themselves spending what amounts to the rest of their lives in a tiny little warzone.
 
Juan, the majority of SWAT ops end with less violence than lesser trained officers making entry. The TTPs employed normally overwhelm, and hence, a less likely chance exists for a gunfight.
They're scanning for threats, and any threats instantly become "enemy" and are generally neutralized.
Of course, anything that imposes an immediate threat of serious injury or death can be called anything you want, but it is a threat nonetheless. And must be dealt with in order to preserve life (whether an officer's, hostage, other citizen's, etc). And quite often, SWAT teams have the tools and training to end a potentially bad situation without loss of life where another officer would have to use deadly force b/c he does not have those tools ot training.
 
Juan, the majority of SWAT ops end with less violence than lesser trained officers making entry. The TTPs employed normally overwhelm, and hence, a less likely chance exists for a gunfight.

Agreed. However, the problem is that I'm of the opinion that SWAT teams are used to make entry in cases where an "entry" in that sense of the word shouldn't occur in the first place. This could have a lot to do with my opinion of the War on Drugs in general, and I suppose I shouldn't expect anybody to agree. I just see no reason drug warrants on nonviolent offenders can't be of the more traditional variety. Sure, Joe Dealer may manage to flush his stash. But I don't place preserving evidence over innocent human life...even a statistically insignificant number of innocent human lives.

Of course, anything that imposes an immediate threat of serious injury or death can be called anything you want, but it is a threat nonetheless. And must be dealt with in order to preserve life (whether an officer's, hostage, other citizen's, etc). And quite often, SWAT teams have the tools and training to end a potentially bad situation without loss of life where another officer would have to use deadly force b/c he does not have those tools or training.

I agree. And once you put a SWAT team in a house, I fully expect to react to any threats against their lives with quick and lethal force. Which is, again, why I question the policies that put them there in the first place, not their reactions once there.

And again, while I cannot speak for anybody else I am not talking about hostage situations or raids where intel suggests the occupants have both the means and a relatively strong inclination to react violently. I'm talking about serving drug warrants against nonviolent offenders, and nothing else.

In many of these situations, the use of a SWAT team creates the "potentially bad situation," so ending that situation without violence more often than "normal" officers doesn't impress me...I'd rather not see the situation created needlessly in the first place. Again, not the fault of SWAT officers, but rather of the policies and higher-ups that send them there. Once they're there, I expect them to do their job.

Also, in the situation of mistaken addresses (or, say, where somebody higher up decides they need to hit the other half of duplexes just for the heck of it) you've now increased the odds of a gunfight ensuing by an infinite factor. Because I don't care how many "knock, announce, and wait" warrants you serve on law-abiding citizens, none are going to result in gunfire or loss of life (unless a half-asleep resident trips down the stairs). However, dynamic entries can cause frightened homeowners to reach for weapons, which suddenly makes them very dead. At the least, it causes the entire situation to be much more confrontational than it would otherwise be, which results in officers conducting the raid/search to be....less than courteous.

I'm hoping nobody is foolish to suggest that such discourtesy might be due to the attitudes of the (stipulated to be law-abiding) residents might bring that discourtesy onto themselves. If you break into my home in the middle of the night when I've done nothing wrong, expect no courtesy. You want courtesy, knock.
 
Aside from the towns that get SWAT teams just because they can get the money for it - and anyone who tries to say that this sort of thing doesn't happen with things that are provided free of charge if asked for is dead wrong - what about the places that have multiple teams, some of which that only compete in SWAT competitions?

In my county, a SWAT team was requested by the Internal Revenue Service office for the purposes of "serving a warrant on a certified public accountant suspected of tax fraud."

I personally think it is a little bit of overkill, to send a SWAT team to serve a warrant for tax evasion. (I know, there will be those who will tell me how dangerous a pencil weilding CPA can be, but I still think it somewhat ridiculous)
 
Juan, you have good points. I agree with your point that there are some decisions by management to utilize SWAT that are not sound. I have been on a few. I have also seen where my TL has said "No" when requested, b/c the outcome and potential for mass hysteria far outweighed our use.
One more thing, just b/c SWAT is used, does not mean a dynamic entry is utilized. It has become far more popular now for teams to use shields for slow, methodical entries, and surround and call-outs.
Gary, re: the IRS team. Yes, does seem like overkill. However, there have been warrants that I have served where the case and charges seemed really benign, but the background intel and history of the suspect determined SWAT utilization. Sometimes, there are many other factors in the equation, outside of the charges or purpose of the warrant, which determine the use of a tactical team. Each department/agency has its own policies.
 
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