Pls offer advice+info on .45 pistols

O

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
I am looking for a .45acp pistol. No good reason, mainly for plinking...it would also live in my gun box at home.

I would like to know your opinions on the following: approx. price new/used in your area, reliability, ease of getting magazines/parts/service, accuracy, recoil harshness, ease of maintenance, anything else you deem inmortant on these models:

Category 1

-HK USP
-HK USP compact
-Sig whatever model # is for the full-size
-Glock 21
-Glock 30

Category 2
-EEA (Tangfolio) Witness
-S&W 4506
-Ruger whatever plastic frame model # is
-CZ whatever model # the full-size is

The story is simple: I found a used (like new) S&W4506 with one magazine, Novak 3-dot sights for $350. One extra used magazine is $20. Up to now, I have been looking at Glock 21 or HK USP compact. In case of Glock, I'd want hi-cap mags. Mags+gun would set me back at least $1K...can't do that just yet. The S&W (or other group 2 guns for about as much money) would get me a .45 right now for about $400 with tax.

The difference would get me 3,000 rounds of .45 practice ball or another rifle...or rent, cat food and flowers for the girlfriend.

My question is (besides the ones asked above) "can a $350 gun in .45acp be any good...and if so, which cheapo one to get?"

I have shot most, but not extensively...

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Oleg

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
I wasn't aware the CZ was available in .45 but if so I recommend that. Of course, that's because I fell in love with the grip and manual of arms on an EAA Witness, so you may not have the same clear NEED for this pistol that I do. I figure I like the Witness a LOT, so if you can afford the "real" CZ you might as well get that since it's supposed to be the same thing only better fit and finish. Personally I'd be happy with the Witness. The Ruger would be OK but can't match the feel of the Witness, and the Smith and Wesson is an ergonomic abomination of which I shall speak no more. That slide safety is unreachable for me; if you can reach it with strong-hand thumb, you may feel differently. CZ or Witness is the choice as far as I'm concerned.

------------------
Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
 
Oleg,

I've own(ed) both Glocks, the Sig P220 and S&Ws 4506 and 4516-1 (compact). For $350 the 4506 will serve you well for plinking and as a HD pistol. It is a large and heavy pistol but should be fine for your stated purposes. My experiences with S&Ws 3rd gen pistols has been 100% postive. Reliable and accurate + I like the Novak sight picture. Extra mags won't cost you and arm and a leg like the Glocks will.

Check the price on the Ruger P??. You may find a NIB one close to the price tag you mentioned. Large pistol also but built tough and reliable.
 
Witness, S&W and Ruger cost about the same amount. I know mags, service are good for S&W and Ruger.

How are service, mag availability+cost for EAA products?

Any tools meeded to adjust "fixed" sights on S&W?

Any preference on ease of maintenence, recoil, etc.?
 
To agree with George Hill/Kodiak...EAA advertising is juvenile and I will refrain from buying their products...except in used form from which they get no benefit. I am insulted by the assumption that I will rush to buy whatever they are selling on the strength of a few irrelevant pin-ups. Camera companies are as bad, unfortunately...

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Oleg

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
I have made a decision. Will buy Ruger P97.

It is UGLY. It has a weird trigger. Ack!

I borrowed one and was quite accurate with it. Recoil was pleasantly slight. It is reliable and inexpensive. Sights work for me. Extra mags are available and inexpensive. I can get more training for the difference in cost between a P97 and a USP/Sig220.

Someday, I will get a USP compact or something along those lines. For now, unless someone dissuades me soon, I will get a P97. Will see if a local rangemaster would sell his...he just got a USP. Otherwise I will just buy a new one.

One question: I understand that P97 will feed ball and JHPs...what about lead semi-wadcutters? Are night sights an option?

------------------
Oleg

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
Good choice on the P97

I have one. Great gun! Just keep a firm grip on it, doesen't like limp wristing too much. That being a light plastic gun and a .45 it's pretty easy to do.

I've put about 1000 rounds through mine and it shoots like a champ. I've used PMC ammo mostly and it liked it a lot. But Fed Hydrashoks is this guns fav meal.

I don't know why people say it's so ugly.. I put a Houge handall grip on it and I don't think it looks so ugly. Then again I never saw why people think Glocks are so ugly..

But I must admit next to my Desert Eagle the Desert Eagle looks dead sexy! :)

-Frank the Spank
 
Frank how do you like the desert eagle? I thought about the 440 cor bon because its rimless and bottle necked for feed reliability.

Sorry Rat I would only reccomend the 1911.
 
I agree, that P97 has to be the best deal going. I own one and can tell you it will shoot everything from cor-bon to factory reoads in FMJ.
That hogue grip is the ticket and I carry mine everywhere IWB. At 30 ounce with full mag, one in the chamber it's not heavy. You can get lighter but only if it's smaller. I think it strikes the balance between weight and accuracy for self defense.

3,000 rnds and no foul upd yet.

------------------
"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
 
If the 4506 is in new condition,you can't go wrong, in my opinion.They are excellent shooters- Smith will stand behind it-and I really like the Smith safety systems for those that are somewhat new to handguns.It can be very comforting to be able to be able to rack a slide with the safety on.I hope you will give it a real good look!!
 
I own 2 .45 ACP EAA Witness Pistols, by Tangfolgio in Italy. Picked up the first for $250 used, quickly bought a second new for $300. Both have the "Wonder Finish" and are full-sized.

Pro's:
all steel.
grip fits me well.
inexpensive for the quality.
mass keeps recoil low (the manual forbids +P, but a magazine of Fed 185gr +P was completely controllable.)
Wonder Finish is matte and not shiny.
Half-cock hammer position.

Con's:
No decocker.
Heavy; esp. loaded with 10 230gr rounds. A little too heavy for holsterless carry.
Fixed sights: the front sight is part of the slide, light in color and the red dot on the blade dissappears in weak light.
Not real stainless steel.

Accuracy:
Both pistols keep 10 rounds of Fed 230gr Hydra-Shoks on 8.5x11" paper at 25 yards, and sometimes will do a 6" tall string.

They would not be my first choice for concealed carry because of the weight and the lack of a decocker. However, there is no CCW in my wonderful home state. For house guns, they are fantastic: more than accurate and reliable enough, cheap enough to let the cops confiscate them but still of beefy construction.
I like the half-cock position of the hammer; it allows me to keep my thumb in front of the hammer when lowering it for double-action.

If you are buying for concealled carry, I'd reccommend something else lighter, slimmer, and with a decocker. This is not to degrade the Witness/CZ design-- I love mine for what I bought them for.
 
It may be telling that I searched for "P97"+problem/trouble/malfunction/break and found ZERO instances mentioned! In my hands, P97 does one hole at 7 yards which is good enough for a combat gun...and I only shoot targets to improve over my own skill, not to compete with others and their $1500 1911s.
 
Oleg:

If you are willing to wait until January 2000 when all of the Holiday shopping bills come in, I'm sure you'll be able to find a nice Glcok 30 for $399-$425. I've seen several G30s sell for around $400 here in Seattle.

If you want a reliably accurate tack-driver, the G30 is the hands down winner. Goto http://www.glocktalk.com/ and search for the G30. they even have their own section on that board.

The EAA Witnesses are nice with the interchangeable barrels but not known for their accuracy or reliably. I considered the Witness Polymer in 45 so I could also get a 9mm barrel but decided to save my money for a Glock or Sig.

The Sig P220 is a great shooter. I just traded mine in. But I kept the Glock 30. They both shoot equally accurate for me. But the P220 is certainly another gun to consider. Used for $450ish.

I love HK. Traded my P220 for an HKP7. But the USP series was designed as HK's entry model guns for those who can't ffornd the $700-$1000 guns. Maybe they are nice but not regarded as being more accurate or reliable than the Glocks, Sigs.

The Smith and Wesson may be a good gun but bulky. SW customer service is great. had a couple but no comparison to a Glock or Sig.

Rugers are great guns and their customer service is good. had a couple. But their entire handgun line from the P95 to the P97 is not known as being the most accurate guns. They are undoubtedly some darn reliable guns that will digest jacketed rat turds. But they are super blocky. They fit your price range though.

The CZ's are known to be good guns. similar in design to the EAA but much better engineered and the slide to frame fit is quite tight. Heard lots of good things about these guns.

As you can tell by now, my collection has moved from Sigmas to HKP7s and Sigs. Save your money another month or so and do as my favorite gunsmith says, "Buy the gun you want, not the one you can afford."

There must be a reason why Glocks are the only handgun manufacturer that has the Glock Sports Shooting Foundation or the GSSF. They are great guns, accurate and take only seconds to break down and 5 minutes to thoroughly clean.

Get the Glock 30 which can use G21 hi cap mags in a size that is versatile for CCW or range plinking/training or in the alternative get a G21, just a little more expensive.

Get the gun you'll be proud of not the one you can afford today. I waited months to save the money for my HKP7. Just borrow or rent guns in the interim.

You'll be glad you waited and you'll hold onto that gun.

------------------

The Seattle Shooter
 
How long is the G30 barrel? I like the little beast for combat purposes, but even my G17 is a pain for target shooting...
The prices here run $600+ for G30 and $350 for P97. Similar ratio for magazines...

What, if any, ammo is optimized for shorter barrels? I plan treload for practice but hope to buy factory some anyway...
 
Oleg, I would seriously consider the CZ-97.
The CZ 97 B is a semi-automatic firearm incorporating a locked breech principle and double-action mode of fire. The handgun is equipped with manual safety, firing pin safety (block), and loaded chamber indicator. The magazine is of a double column type and has a 10 round capacity. The slide is locked open when the last cartridge from the magazine has been fired.

The loaded chamber indicator indicates the presence of a cartridge in the chamber. A safety notch on the hammer prevents inadvertent discharge and the firing pin safety positively ensures drop safety of the pistol. The manual safety is designed in such a way so as to engage the pistol’s safety mode while also enabling the “carriage” of the pistol while the safety is off and a cartridge is loaded in the chamber. At the same time it is safe for all normal handling.

Characteristic features of all versions are:
A large capacity double-column magazine. A comfortable grip and balance in either hand with good results at instinctive shooting (without aiming). A low trigger pull weight, and high accuracy of fire. A long service life coupled to high reliability. The slide stays open after the last cartridge has been fired, suitable for COMBAT shooting. The sights are fitted with a three-dot illuminating system for better aiming in poor visibility conditions-optional tritium or micrometrical sights can be fitted on request to the customer’s specifications. Selective SA/DA firing mechanism operation.

For more info, please go to:
http://www.czub.cz/PISTOLA.HTM

Spare mags are just $17.00 (mec-gar) from www.ajaxgrips.com (same mags as the eaa witness .45).

Price is around $460.00.

It possesed the ergonomics of the CZ-75.

What else can I say?
 
CZ is also know for stupid ads, but not for shoddy work. How's their service, parts availability, expected service life?
In particulare, are any tools needed to adjust "fixed" sights for windage?

I liked most aspects of Witness and CZ seems like a step in the same right direction. P97 may be reliable and functional but itsn't much of a fun toy...then again, CZ/EAA designs are homely, too.
 
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