DerGlockenpooper
New member
This is a mixed post from the energy thread as well as this penetration thread, which are sister threads running concurrently.
In regards to your last post to me in the other thread about energy, 355Sigfan, you are wrong.
The .45 caliber 230gr Hydrashok is rated %96 overall now according to latest results from Sanow (you need to keep up on this stuff, since you quote it so much).
And, when fired from a service handgun, the 230gr Hydrashok DOES perform as well or better than all rifle and shotgun rounds (can’t get much better than %100 OSS, which the 230gr Hydrashok has from a 5 inch barrel according to Sanow!). Many rifle and shotgun loads are rated even well below %96, and even below %90.
Since you seem to have dodged answering my post in the other thread by telling me that my numbers were wrong, following is a quote for you to verify my numbers, straight out of Ed Sanow's latest articles:
According to the very most recent info directly from your hero Sanow, he rates the .45 230gr Hydrashok (a standard pressure, slow, fat, low-energy deep penetrating load) exactly equal with the 125gr .357 Magnum in all guns, and the same 230gr HS .45 as the TOP load in service guns.
Handguns Magazine, April 2000, page 50:
Ed Sanow says: "With an incredible 96 percent one-shot-stops, number three on my list of top 10 self defense loads is the .45 Caliber 230 grain Federal Hydrashok. This is no fluke. These results are based on nearly 200 police-action shootings. Honorable mention goes to CCI 230 gr Gold Dot….
From a 5 inch .45 ACP pistol, the 230gr Hydrashok is the top load. Period." (Sanow is quoted elsewhere as to saying that the ".45 230gr Hydrashok from a 5 inch barrel has an amazing %100 one shot stop record"). "It is slightly more effective than the higher energy 185gr +P loads and does not have the stiff +P recoil"
There you have it from the horses mouth. The 230rg Hydrashok is THE TOP LOAD OF ALL, PERIOD when fired from a service gun
(BTW - Since Sanow's data is from police shootings, nearly all of it is from service handguns).
Not only that, but he says that the low energy 230gr Hydrashok with "only" 370 foot pounds of kinetic energy has better stopping power than ALL OTHER LOADS, even the 185gr +P in the same bullet variety. If energy is all that matter then how can this be???
Shouldn’t such a low energy bullet be rated very low? How can it possibly be rated right up there with the 125gr .357 Magnum?
BTW, the ONLY load that Sanow rates above the 230gr Hydrashok (230 HS) is the .40 caliber 155gr Hydrashok, and it is rated a "whopping" %1 higher overall with a %97 compared to a %96 for the 230gr HS .45 from all sizes of guns. The 125gr .357 Magnum is also rated at %96 stops, so the 230gr Hydrashok is second only to one bullet, and that is the .40 caliber 155gr Hydrashok, and it trails be a meager %1 (based on far fewer shootings, BTW) in Sanow’s hokey data charts.
Furthermore, on page 51 of the same article Sanow says that the optimal penetration for a law enforecement bullet, according to his street data, has been proven to be 14 to 16 inches of penetration.
You might want to take note of that for further research and debates. Your guru Sanow does NOT say that 12 inches is the maximum, he says in fact that 14 to 16 inches of penetration is optimal.
Also, The 135gr .40 caliber high energy laod has been dropped down to 92% OSS effectiveness according to the same article, (lower than the 9mm 115gr+P by Corbon, by the way, which gets a 93% in the newest data).
If energy dump is all that matters, how come the high energy rounds are not beating out the slow, fat, low energy, deep penetrating 230gr .45 HS?
Once again, this is of course only if you think that S&M’s data holds any weight. After all, with the effectiveness of the 230gr Hydrashok, it is more effective than most rifle and shotgun rounds according to their own data!
Whatever the outcome, one thing I do know is that they ALL agree that the .45 works and that nothing works better than the old 230gr HS by any measurable margin. Fackler will tell you that the 230gr HS penetrates just great, and it makes a big hole, hopefully expanding and making an even bigger hole. Sanow and Marshall will also tell you that the 230gr HS is the top round., even though it does not fit their claims that more energy is better. So, I guess I feel pretty safe with my .45. Or, for that matter, with my 9mm which seems to hang with the rest of them in all these studies.
When it comes down to it, I like the one I shoot the best and that is my Glock 19 and my Glock 30. I could care less about all these stupid caliber studies, but I read up on them just for the heck of it.
Ps- I agree with your last post, my only point of contention was that you said that the .45 230gr HS rates below the .357, which is wrong according to Sanow's latest data.
Also, you are mistaken in penetration depths because he says that 14-16 inches is optimal.
[This message has been edited by DerGlockenpooper (edited September 07, 2000).]
In regards to your last post to me in the other thread about energy, 355Sigfan, you are wrong.
The .45 caliber 230gr Hydrashok is rated %96 overall now according to latest results from Sanow (you need to keep up on this stuff, since you quote it so much).
And, when fired from a service handgun, the 230gr Hydrashok DOES perform as well or better than all rifle and shotgun rounds (can’t get much better than %100 OSS, which the 230gr Hydrashok has from a 5 inch barrel according to Sanow!). Many rifle and shotgun loads are rated even well below %96, and even below %90.
Since you seem to have dodged answering my post in the other thread by telling me that my numbers were wrong, following is a quote for you to verify my numbers, straight out of Ed Sanow's latest articles:
According to the very most recent info directly from your hero Sanow, he rates the .45 230gr Hydrashok (a standard pressure, slow, fat, low-energy deep penetrating load) exactly equal with the 125gr .357 Magnum in all guns, and the same 230gr HS .45 as the TOP load in service guns.
Handguns Magazine, April 2000, page 50:
Ed Sanow says: "With an incredible 96 percent one-shot-stops, number three on my list of top 10 self defense loads is the .45 Caliber 230 grain Federal Hydrashok. This is no fluke. These results are based on nearly 200 police-action shootings. Honorable mention goes to CCI 230 gr Gold Dot….
From a 5 inch .45 ACP pistol, the 230gr Hydrashok is the top load. Period." (Sanow is quoted elsewhere as to saying that the ".45 230gr Hydrashok from a 5 inch barrel has an amazing %100 one shot stop record"). "It is slightly more effective than the higher energy 185gr +P loads and does not have the stiff +P recoil"
There you have it from the horses mouth. The 230rg Hydrashok is THE TOP LOAD OF ALL, PERIOD when fired from a service gun
(BTW - Since Sanow's data is from police shootings, nearly all of it is from service handguns).
Not only that, but he says that the low energy 230gr Hydrashok with "only" 370 foot pounds of kinetic energy has better stopping power than ALL OTHER LOADS, even the 185gr +P in the same bullet variety. If energy is all that matter then how can this be???
Shouldn’t such a low energy bullet be rated very low? How can it possibly be rated right up there with the 125gr .357 Magnum?
BTW, the ONLY load that Sanow rates above the 230gr Hydrashok (230 HS) is the .40 caliber 155gr Hydrashok, and it is rated a "whopping" %1 higher overall with a %97 compared to a %96 for the 230gr HS .45 from all sizes of guns. The 125gr .357 Magnum is also rated at %96 stops, so the 230gr Hydrashok is second only to one bullet, and that is the .40 caliber 155gr Hydrashok, and it trails be a meager %1 (based on far fewer shootings, BTW) in Sanow’s hokey data charts.
Furthermore, on page 51 of the same article Sanow says that the optimal penetration for a law enforecement bullet, according to his street data, has been proven to be 14 to 16 inches of penetration.
You might want to take note of that for further research and debates. Your guru Sanow does NOT say that 12 inches is the maximum, he says in fact that 14 to 16 inches of penetration is optimal.
Also, The 135gr .40 caliber high energy laod has been dropped down to 92% OSS effectiveness according to the same article, (lower than the 9mm 115gr+P by Corbon, by the way, which gets a 93% in the newest data).
If energy dump is all that matters, how come the high energy rounds are not beating out the slow, fat, low energy, deep penetrating 230gr .45 HS?
Once again, this is of course only if you think that S&M’s data holds any weight. After all, with the effectiveness of the 230gr Hydrashok, it is more effective than most rifle and shotgun rounds according to their own data!
Whatever the outcome, one thing I do know is that they ALL agree that the .45 works and that nothing works better than the old 230gr HS by any measurable margin. Fackler will tell you that the 230gr HS penetrates just great, and it makes a big hole, hopefully expanding and making an even bigger hole. Sanow and Marshall will also tell you that the 230gr HS is the top round., even though it does not fit their claims that more energy is better. So, I guess I feel pretty safe with my .45. Or, for that matter, with my 9mm which seems to hang with the rest of them in all these studies.
When it comes down to it, I like the one I shoot the best and that is my Glock 19 and my Glock 30. I could care less about all these stupid caliber studies, but I read up on them just for the heck of it.
Ps- I agree with your last post, my only point of contention was that you said that the .45 230gr HS rates below the .357, which is wrong according to Sanow's latest data.
Also, you are mistaken in penetration depths because he says that 14-16 inches is optimal.
[This message has been edited by DerGlockenpooper (edited September 07, 2000).]