Please stop with this must go 12 inches or more penitration Bull crap.

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355sigfan

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I am tired of people stating that any load less than 12 inches will fail to stop. The real world of the street tells us a far different story. Besided the vitals are only 5 inches from the from of the chest and only 7.5 inches from the side on a cross torso shot. The average person is only 9.5 inches thick. So a bullet going a mear 8 inche should work nealy all the time.
PAT

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I intend to go into harms way.
 
You for got 5-6 inches for the Arm
5in + 7.5 > 12 in

12 Inches Minimum Penatration and even then you can come up short.
Also Notice in how many Shooting you see on video where the people are hunched over leaving a top of shoulder downwards shot.
 
You may even run into a couple of bones along the way. I'll error on the side of a little more penetration...
 
So the guy is right handed, comin at you quartering with knife raised and intent to harm. You get a nice sternum hit, take out the heart and some ribs on the back side. He kills you and dies later. I want LOTS of penetration AND expansion. And I would like to get the spine or brain.

Sam...if it has to be a handgun, it should be a LOUD one.
 
Well, 355 doesn't usually start topics. He must be awful riled up over this one. Just remember Pat, opinions are like ***holes. Everybody's got one. Having said that, have fun, man. Sic 'em!! :D
 
And I'm of the opinion that civility should return to this board. "People, can't we all just get along?"

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"Get yourself a Lorcin and lose that nickel plated sissy pistol."
 
"The average person is only 9.5 inches thick."
If you are ever attacked by a 300 pound body builder, just tell him that he is not playing by the rules since he is too thick.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by No4Mk1*:
If you are ever attacked by a 300 pound body builder, just tell him that he is not playing by the rules since he is too thick.[/quote]

ROTFLMAO ! Same thing goes for all those 450 pound refugees from Richard Simmons' diet clinics. The HELL with 12 inches of bullet penetration, give me a HARPOON GUN! Thar she blows!


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Just one of the Good Guys
 
I just recently had the dis-pleasure of seeing someone take 4 158gr .357 softpoints to the COM from about 15ft using a 6.5" barrel. The guy shot was of average build. He ran 50ft before collapsing. No overpenetration at all. All 4 rounds stayed within the chest. I too side on the argument of at least 12".
 
With respect...
Experts who may have shot one or two human beings, ten thousand pieces of paper or a thousand blocks of jello can be over-impressed by '5 inches' or even '10 inches' of penetrative capability.
Others, of whom I am one, have become convinced of the fallacy of 'just enough penetration' theories, through extensive experience in the hunting fields. Theories are wonderful, but the real test is done against flesh and bone.
Human felons are just another species of hyped-up wild animal. Experienced hunters know that you need to break a lot of bone and make a big hole clear through the creature, to stop it quickly.
A human being may, under certain conditions, go down quickly after a hit with a smallbore, but this is a psychological effect. I take my cue from the way Platt kept fighting with multiple non-survivable small-caliber wounds, during the Miami shootout.High velocity smallbores may make nasty wounds in soft tissue, and I certainly wouldn't choose to be shot with one, but it takes mass and momentum to really get the job done through barrier materials or against very determined opponents.
If I have to shoot someone, I want to know that I can shoot clear through Murphy to do it. 'Enough gun' is never enough.

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If they take our guns, I intend to let my hair grow long and acquire the jawbone of an ass.
 
Slabsides,

"If they take our guns, I intend to let my hair grow long and acquire the jawbone of an ass."

Thanks. That was the one good laugh I had today. I love it.
 
"Such clear and undeniable evidence will certainly brand any remaining 'one-shot stop' supporters as members of a lunatic fringe." :) -- Martin L. Fackler, M.D., Undeniable Evidence

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com



[This message has been edited by Shawn Dodson (edited September 05, 2000).]
 
You are right about MOST of the time, but most is merely 51%. We are not happy with 51 % stopping probability. That said, however, 12 inches is a GREAT plenty. You can't get a reliable 12" of penetration and expansion too, not in a controlable and carryable pistol. NO faster than300 lb lardasses can move, I can shoot them many times. The most that Schwartzenegger ever weighed when he competed was 250 lbs, and he is a tall man. Add 100 lbs of blubber to the average 200 lb man, and see how "fast" he ain't. Most of the world's men are Asian, Arabic, or Hispanic, and thus, 150 lbs or less. If your load and piece are adequately controlable and you are adequately skilled, you will hit him 2-3 times in 1/2 second, before he could fall if he WANTED to.
 
In the socialist state I live in the jails have to have a workout room or so I have been told. At one of my 2nd jobs, stocking overnight at a grocery store, I worked with and supervised more than a couple of temps and new hires that had criminal records.

IMHO against a 230 lbs plus person that works out a 45 acp or 9 mm seems rather wimpy. And a 44 mag doesn't feel at all over board.

Though i haven't shot a goblin, both of the people who I have talked to at any length that have [with handguns] commented on the lack of immediate effect with solid hits from their serviced sized handguns. Fact is the one guy now uses 44 mags whenever he can for carry weapon.

I think one reason that more failures aren't seen with the typical 9mm/40/45/357's is that many of the people shot with those calibers are not fully enraged yet. And that many of the failures to stop, with any caliber [Maimi shootout etc], are a result of the targets mind and body being fully programed to fight.
 
I don't know, you could be surprised just how fast a big man can move in a short distance.

My Dad tops out just under 400 lbs, and there where many times when he ran me down when he was pissed off when I was a kid. :D
 
I say you CAN get a foot, or a lot more, of penetration AND expansion. With a controllable and concealable weapon. 148gr at bout 1300fps out of a 2.5" bbl 686 will go through and get big doin it. Triple tap or more right up the centerline if desired or all six in a 4" hole.

Sam...make my 9 a 9X32R
 
355sigfan,

Please mind your language. We are trying to keep this forum genteel. We have plenty of synonyms for your terms, something like "unfounded claims" would have got the point across just fine. Thanks.

Oleg "square" Volk
 
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