Please help me identify this Winchester Model 1894!

I have collected and studied these models for over 40 years, so I do have some knowledge. I view hundreds of these yearly. The things I know for sure about your rifles pictures is this. Your rifle has been reblued and the stock has been refinished. The tang sight was an add on after it left the factory. Thousands of old guns had these installed by the owner. I have had quite a few over the years. This gun screams cutdown to me, but without actual handling it and measuring it I will just have to say from my feeling this is a cutdown. Lastly you have a rifle model that should have left the factory with a 26" barrel, though a person could order rifles with barrel as short as 18" and as long as 36". The 26" were standard and the most common short lenght was 20". Though yours is 20" it just doesnt look original to ME. Lastly the magazine tube looks cut, even though you could order any lenght a customer wanted.
 
30-30: What about it doesn't "look" factory? If it was factory, what would it look like? I'm not questioning your experience, though I find it hard to believe that you would be able to tell the difference between a factory 20" and a cut-down 20", especially considering the poor quality of the pictures I took. The problem with your theory is that unless I'm mistaken, there was no 1894 produced with both an octagonal barrel longer than 20" WITH crescent butt-plate, forgetting for the moment that this could be a special order.
 
You have aquired some mis-imformation about cresent buttplates. Unless special ordered from the factory, ALL 1894 rifles had cresent butts reguardless of barrel length. I have owned quite a few short rifles and standard rifles and all had cresent buttplates. On rifles the "standard" special order buttplate was a flat shotgun butt with a hard rubber "WINCHESTER" enbossed buttplate. One of the tells about your rifle being altered is the end of the magazine tube. From the distant photos, it appears to be flat in shape. If this is true it would have been from a longer full length magazine tube. Shorter than full magazine tube caps were bowl shape. Again as I said earlier, without much closer photographs and measurement it can be comfirmed one way or the other.
 
Agree with 30-30.
Reblued.
Either a short rifle with the magazine shortened or a rifle with barrel and magazine shortened.
Tang sight looks like a Lyman 1A. Wonder why it is rusty and the rifle reblue has held up so well?
 
have collected and studied these models for over 40 years, so I do have some knowledge. I view hundreds of these yearly. The things I know for sure about your rifles pictures is this. Your rifle has been reblued and the stock has been refinished. The tang sight was an add on after it left the factory. Thousands of old guns had these installed by the owner. I have had quite a few over the years. This gun screams cutdown to me, but without actual handling it and measuring it I will just have to say from my feeling this is a cutdown. Lastly you have a rifle model that should have left the factory with a 26" barrel, though a person could order rifles with barrel as short as 18" and as long as 36". The 26" were standard and the most common short lenght was 20". Though yours is 20" it just doesnt look original to ME. Lastly the magazine tube looks cut, even though you could order any lenght a customer wanted.
Click to expand...

In other words, go shoot it at the range, take it hunting, kill some deer or coyote or groundhogs with it.
 
3030Remchester wrote:
Shorter than full magazine tube caps were bowl shape.

I'm with you on this - unless it was a "trapper" mag tube replacing a damaged orotherwise unwanted full length tube. .Also, I'm away from the pic right now, but I'd check to see if there is a more forward original location of mag tube hanger dovetail on the underside of the barrel that matches up (or doesn't) exactly where known factory short rifles were. If there's an "empty" or plugged dovetail in a more forward location--but different from the standard 26" long rifle's location, then it would appear you have a regular short rifle with a cut (or replacement trapper) mag tube. If it looks like the existing hanger is the only dovetail, then perhaps factory special order?
 
Haon8 wrote:
Gak, under what circumstance would someone have ever replaced the full-length magazine on a short rifle with a trapper tube unless the magazine was damaged? It doesn't seem like there could be anything to gain from doing so, which would lead me to believe that it left the factory that way.

Just speculating, but as you said - damaged, or possibly catering to local/state hunting laws limiting rounds anyway (to four or five, vs the 6 the .30-30 and I think .32 Sp also has/would have had std). This (latter) reason doesn't seem likely and I've yet to have a game warden question my 20" .30-30s' one additional round potential capacity...but some locales may be more persnickety. My theory on the trapper-length tube seems a little off too as trappers (baby carbines) are and were exceedingly rare, so you'd think hence parts scarce as well--unless it was just a recent quick fix with a handy later tube. A factory special order half or button mag or cut tube to make for a slightly lighter tube (and therefore ammo quantity/weight) for field use is often the reason given for shorter than stock tubes. Still, I'd think if one didn't like full tubes (for whatever reason) and were to go to the trouble of cutting or installing a shorter tube, they'd make it shorter yet, even with the wood forend. This tube isn't cut enough to matter in weight (reduced just one maybe two rounds max). So?? Again, just speculation.
 
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Again, I knew that the rifle was reblued, and I was fairly sure that the wood had been re-finished.

30-30: I don't know where you're drawing this info from, but I saw firsthand while at the trading post that there were a decent amount produced with the flat butt plate, specifically the model 1894 carbine. Here are two sites with that information.

http://homesteadfirearms.com/appraisals/winchester/1894/1894model-configurations.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/win_pre_64_M94.htm

In terms of the barrel length, again, what tips you off to it having been cut down (aside from the fact that it "might have been")? From what I understand, the length could easily have been correct in a short rifle.

Additionally, if I was looking to easily restore the value to the rifle by adding a convex magazine plug and I were to get one of the following, which would be proper?

http://www.chasjonesgunparts.com/catalog/item/540220/192901.htm
http://www.chasjonesgunparts.com/catalog/item/540220/192902.htm

I guess the only thing that confuses me here is the "lip."

Also, since someone was wondering about the tang-sight, my dad and I wiped the gun down and cleaned it with some oil, and the majority of the "rust" (probably dirt) came out of the sight.
 
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HAON8, I am aquiring my imformation from 40 plus years of collecting, dealing, and restoring this model. I have an extensive library as well that goes into such detail that every screw and marking is studied. Ihave read each and every book repeatedly. This being said there is always room for futher education. One problem you are having with the buttplate issue is the little known fact that a 'RIFLE' and a 'CARBINE' are 2 different guns. A carbine could have a barrel as short as 12" and as long as 20". The barrel of all carbines are round, no exceptions. A carbine could be ordered with a special butt, however so few ever were, those that were are highly prized and suspect. The carbine buttplates have evolved over the years. The first models had what is known as a carbine buttplate, similiar but not the same as a cresent butt. In @1932 to speed production and reduce cost, Winchester produced all carbine afterwards with a flat butt. On these there were a few different styles of flat buttplate, too many to go into detail here. On a carbine the forend was attached to the barrel with a band going all the way around the barrel and forend. On a carbine the forward magazine tube was held on to the barrel with the same barrel band. On a RIFLE the buttplate was always a cresent buutplate unless specifically ordered without. A RIFLE could be had with a barrel as short as 18" and as long as 36" with 26" standard. The forend of a RIFLE was attached to the barrel with a forend cap as yours has. A RIFLE had the magazine tube attached to the barrel with a "hanger" dovetailed into the underside of the barrel. A RIFLE barrel could be had in either round, half round, or octaginal shape. I hope this clears the differences up.
 
It does clear things up, thanks. However, I'm still curious as to why you think the barrel was cut down. Like I said, it is now to my understanding that the short rifles were exactly the same length (20"), and I'm curious regarding what you're looking at in the pictures that would tip you off that the barrel (not the magazine) was cut down.

Also keep in mind that the barrel is exactly 20", no more, no less. It's possible that the owner had it cut down exactly to match the length of a short rifle, but I find it far more probable that if he had cut it down, he would have just done it to a point where the bore was in good shape.
 
HAON8, you asked what evidence I might have concerning the originality of your barrel length. As stated a few times I would have to actually handle and measure a few things myself before I could know for sure, but from decades of viewing hundreds of examples per year, I just get a gut feeling. Kinda like how a mother cow can find her own calf in a herd of calves. One thing that stands out (kinda) is the lenght of the forend wood. MOST short rifles has a forarm wood 1" shorter than a standard rifle forend. Your "appears" to be the longer forend of the standard rifle. Many years of research has gone into the study of non standard Winchester. Short rifles are heavily studied and have been pretty much made easy to identify by this detailed study. There are minor differences. When measured these short rifles are easy to identify as original or later modified. I would have to re-reseach the following measurement, but a few difference are the measurement of the forend wood, the measurement of the distance of the front sight dovetail to the end of the muzzle, the measurement of the rear sight dovetail (which is a big giveaway) as they differ from the standard rifle measurements. Many people dont know how to properly measure a shotgun or rifle barrel. I am not sure if you do as well, and I am NOT repeat NOT defaming or belittling anyone. Some members of these forums try to appear experts which I am definately not. I look as these forums as an education oppertunity. To properly measure a barrel you must repeat must make sure the gun is empty. Close the bolt, in your case close the lever, and then run a cleaning rod down the barrel and mark the cleaning rod where it stops at the muzzle. Then remove the cleaning rod and measure to the mark. Doing this does your have a 20" barrel? From what I see in the distant photo's your grand old rifle was used hard and refinished and cut down to a customers speccs. That is how it appears. These guns were heavily used in their days. As for the magazine tube length, this particular part was actually quite lightly constructerd and easily damaged. I couldnt even count the number of guns I have seen with a tube cut because of damage, just a normal repair for a working gun.
 
Thanks. I understand that it's difficult to tell from pictures, and I was just wondering what the signs were.
 
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