Please help me choose between these rifles...

P

psywar

New member
Hello All,

I'd like to buy a nice .308 rifle to learn long distance shooting. (out to 300 yards for now)

I have narrowed the choices to these weapons, could anyone comment on any of the rifles ?


1. McMillan Bros. Remington Model 700 (MCR)
with A4 stock (~$2400.00)
http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcbros/tactical/tac.htm

2. The Nor-Cal Precision Night Hawk Tactical Rifle With Tactical Vent System & Flash Hider
(~$2445.00)
http://www.best.com/~tactical/tenants/norcalprecision/productstactical.html

3. Texas Brigade Armory's USMC M40A3, 7.62mm NATO (.308 Win) with integral adj. cheekpiece, USMC scope mount and sling (~$1749)
http://www.texasbrigade.com/rifles.html

4. Robar SR60 (~$2400)
http://www.robarguns.com/customr1.html

or

5. buy a Remington 700 PSS and learn to shoot well before I spend big bucks... (~$750)

I'd don't mind paying the money for a well crafted rifle, but I have never seen these rifles reviewed anywhere except in passing in places like http://www.snipercountry.com/sniper.htm

thank you for any insight you can provide this new guy !!!

-psywar
 
Truthfully.. before you go spend Thousands of dollars.. I'd go with option #5.. only since you said you were LEARNING to shoot long range. Good training can provide a lot more hits than buying a fancy scope or stock can. use the money saved on a class or two.

I like the looks of the macmillan stock (never tried one) but Mac's "got the goods" from EVERY review of his products I've ever read.

TBA's M40 got a thumbs up from some people over at varmint hunter as well.

According to some of the TFL guys who went to the SHOT SHOW, SAVAGE is going to offer a 110 model WITH John Pilaster's SNIPER/Tactical stock as a FACTORY gun. That MIGHT get you in the ball park of the KIND of rifle you are looking for without blowing the bank.

I'd also recommend picking up a copy of Varmint Hunter Magazine.. those guys KNOW how to shoot.

Dr.Rob
 
Haven't had any experience with any of those mentions except with the TBA M40A3. A friend of mine has one that. As far as I can tell it is a very nice rifle.

I say as far because I never shot it. He shoots his M40 and I shoot my AWP whenever we shoot together. He seems to think it is a nice gun but my groups are always smaller. :eek:

------------------
Schmit, GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
 
Go with #5, you hit the nail on the head. Go with a low-cost, extremely well built rifle that will perform as well as the other contenders. Use the money that you would have paid for the "exotic" rifles towards practise ammo and accessories.

Make sure to buy a quality scope and even a bipod, as these will aid in sharpening your rifle skills.
 
No doubt about it, go with the Remington. Since your just begining you may find you don't like it, I would think the PSS should be a lot easier to peddle. I agree with Pete, with the money you save buy yourself a good quality scope. Your rifle will probably be more accurate than you are. Not an insult, these Rem.'s are very good rifles. :)

------------------
bullet placement is gun control
 
Thanks for the input so far ! I expected I'd get a lot of "walk before you run" advice.

I'm gonna go talk to my dealer on Sat. and try to get him to order a Remington 700P.

I will not cheap the optics, thinking of Leupold or U.S. Optics.

Thanks again ! and please if you have any first hand knowledge of any of the above rifles, please still post the info. !

-psywar
 
One more vote for #5. It's possible that may have it half way shot out before you'd even be able to take advantage of the difference between a PSS & a $3K gun.
 
You will be surprised with my recommendation but I would recommend you buy a Remmingtom Varminter and when you feel comfortable with it send it to us to put a match barrel and fiberglass stock on it and you will have what you need at a better price,
 
Why not get a Savage Tactical and take the money you save and buy a Leupold Vari-X III and a Dillon XL650 loader. The Savage will shoot with most of the guns you mentioned. It may not be as pretty, but your target really doesn't care. (There not the best looking gun on the market)

Giz
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.


[This message has been edited by Giz (edited January 22, 2000).]
 
One more vote for the Remington PSS or Varmint Synthetic, one as yet unmentioned option is to later build your 700 into whatever configuration your experience decides on. If I am not mistaken all the rifles mentioned in your original post are based on the 700 action and almost any well used 700 action can be built into the custom guns mentioned.
 
Hey there,

I don't want to sound like I'm raining on your parade, but if you cannot shoot well at 100 yards, what makes you think that you can do so at 300 yards? No slick multi-thousand dollar rifle will make you shoot any better - I can tell you that! Tiger Woods could shoot scratch golf with my beat up clubs while I might just be able to par a few using his. You need to hone your skills first, then you can get the precision armaments.

Now, I'm not saying that you can't shoot, I'm just illustrating a point. The fundamentals of marksmanship do not change across these distances. In other words, if you can hold 'em at 100, then you can hold 'em at a 1000. If I had a dollar for every ya-who who went out and spent beau coup dinero for a slick rifle and still couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, I'd have a heap of cash.

All this being said, I'd like to relate what we (Marines) would do when practicing for a High power match when we didn't have access to the 600 yard range. We'd shoot at what are known as reduced centers at 100 - 200 yards. Instead of having the big 20 inch (5V) bull that we used at the 600, we used a special target center that was calculated to appear the same size at 100 - 200 yards as the real thing would look at the proper range. A scaled down version if you will. These are available through the NRA, DCM, military supply, and (I presume) through a well stocked gun store.

I'll go with the last poster who said to get the cheaper rifle, and a decent scope, AND the reloader, and go on from there. When it's all said and done, you can then trade that Savage, (or what ever it is that you end up with) for one of Gale's sweet-heart's and then really be able to do it some justice.

Once again, I'm not trying to poke fun at you, but as you said, you wanted to "learn how to shoot at long range..." Get the short range stuff locked on first, I say, and then start moving your mark out. There are such things as mirage, crosswinds, changing light conditions, and about 50 other factors that come into play as you stretch out the distance, so make sure you hit at the shorter range before you get too fancy.

Good luck, Unkel Gilbey
 
I would follow Mr. McMillan's advise regarding your entry level rifle for long range competition. I started out and purchased one of the Savage Comp. 308 rifles and accuracy was quite good for my level of shooting at that time, but the trigger is a mess. I understand that aftermarket triggers are now available for the rifle. I shot that rifle for close to two years and it took me from Master Unclassified (lowest level) to Expert. I then had a 40X built and have shot it for the past 2 plus years and did(barely!) make it to High Master Long Range. Did the changing of rifles do all of that for me?? No question, the 40X is a far superior rifle than the stock Savage, but as mentioned by the Marine(I shoot at Quantico)the trigger puller(me) had to improve a tremendous amount and learn a great deal in order to improve my performance. If in the beginning I had taken the plunge and purchased one of these built 40X rifles, I seriously doubt I would have improved any quicker than I did. No question you have to have suitable equipment, but someone starting out to shoot long range quite frankly can not shoot as good as the rifle/load can and you would be investing quite a bit of money and not realize the value from it for sometime to come. 40X action,Stolle action,etc. best quality barrel such as Krieger, Hart, Obermeyer,etc. properly done fitted stock and pillar bedding work, micrometer sights(Warner,RPA,Zelenak,etc.) Jewell Trigger, Optics,and you could go on and on, but without the sights your are going to be awful close to the 2 grand level if not more.
(Perhaps Mr. McMillan will give you a break!)
Seriously, he has a fine reputation and no doubt he could build you a rifle that will shoot long range, but suggest you contact him after you have "sent down range 3-4000 rounds."
Favor Center!!
 
Option 5 is the one. Savage makes a very nice 308 cal rifle that from all reports, give it a top rating. The rifle is bolt action, which means better accuracy, and is called the 308 Tactical. Check it out, it is thousands less, and as you are just begining there is no sense in buying an expensive rifle at this time.
 
If you can afford to, get BOTH rifles NOW! In the current political climate who knows how long it will be before we're "protected" from these "evil sniper-assult, death machines" Buy two guns based on the same action (rem 700), & that will accept the same acessories. When you're ready for the better gun, move the scope & other goodies over. Your plain jane 700 shoule be sold to or given to a young shooter just starting out. Or.... it could be "sold" or "stolen" or even "droped in the lake"; you know for a rainy day.
 
I agree with the Remington Varmit in the laminated wood. Only because I have had the PSS and the VS and neither of these stocks are what I wanted. The VLS (Varmit Laminated Stock) is the same action as the VS minus the H&S stock. Price diff about $200. Thats a good bit of $$ to apply to optics, which I would recommend, and down the road find that stock that you feel is perfect. The wood stock version shoots extremely well. Planning on buying one to build my next weapon, besides someone is always willing to buy the laminated stock at a good price.

Be Safe
Mike
 
I'd take Gale's advice, for absodamnlutely sure. I'm shooting a factory Rem. 700 VS, .223, have a couple of friends who shoot the same rifle in .308. I didn't go the expensive trigger route; bought a Timney for under $60. I shot a five-shot .246" group, using my reloads, in 55gr. BT, just about a month ago.

If you do feel the need to upgrade, then send the rifle to McMillan or one of the other custom rifle makers and you'll have a jewell.(No pun intended)

------------------
Shoot to kill; they'll stop when they're dead!
 
#5 is the way to go
300 yds is NOT long distance..i shoot 300 with iron sights, the rifles youve listed will hit at 700 and up. learn to shoot without a scoped weapon..get your breathing cheek placement,sight pic,trigger pull, all down pat,then blow tons of cash on a rifle.
most of the rifles youve listed work off a rem 700 action(i'm not sure about the nor cal)they are all tactical.unless a stint in sta platoon is in your future, i'm not sure you would need that much rifle.either way you can build out a good rifle later with the 700 action.
good luck, johnny
 
Okay, this is getting a little repititious, but here's my $.02.... Get a Remington 700VS. It is the EXACT same barrelled action as the 700P (aka 700PSS) with the only differnce being the stock. Get a good scope and tons of ammo and hit the range. Once you've become "familiar" with the rifle, then start upgrading. You can get an exotic stock for it ranging from $150 (Choate "ultimate sniper" stock) to a couple grand (maybe the AWS stock or something similar) and you can have the trigger done (or replaced) and get it rebarrelled. When all is said and done, you will have spent about the same $$$, but you'll have a rifle that's set up just the way you want, and the knowledge and skill you'll have earned will be priceless.
-John
 
How about
#6 - Barrett M82A1 (for hunting wabbits) :D
#7 - HK PSG-1 (you got $10K laying around, right?) :eek:

Actually:
Another vote for the Remington 700. One thing to consider is that the PSS has a 24" bbl, where the VS has a 26" bbl. I don't know much details about ballistics, so I'm not sure how much an extra 2" will buy you.

I bought a VS, where my buddy bought the VLS. Differences between the two?

VS: "parkerized" matte finish, black bolt, H-S Precision stock w/ aluminum bedding, FREE FLOATED BBL.
VLS: "shiny" finish, silvery bolt, heavy laminated stock, NOT free floated bbl.
Of course I paid $200 more than him, but I think the extra goodies are worth it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Remington discontinue the VS in .308? I'm looking at my '99 Remington catalog and the only listing I have for heavy bbl .308s is the VLS, VS(left handed), VS w/composite bbl (aww yea), and the VS/SF (stainless, fluted). I remember the dealer telling me I bought the last one they had in their inventory. (This was last spring).

One nice thing about the 700 is that there is a lot of aftermarket stocks available. I have my eye on the Accuracy International replacement stock, but I don't think I can justify paying more money for a stock than what I paid for the rifle.

One little tip: If you plan on shooting from any surface other than a level one, (the ground?) make sure you get a bipod that can tip from side to side. It will save you the headace of adjusting those little legs all the time.
 
Based on past experience, BTW I have been out of rifle shooting for several years, the Model 70 Winchester, Standard Target, if you like bolt guns, used to be a very nice rifle.

Do not know if USRAC, or whatever name they use these days still offers that model, however they do, I believe, offer some heavy barreled rifles in 30 caliber. Nice thing these days, is that you can get the "Pre 1964" type action, or the "push feed" type, and they also make a left hand bolt action, or so their catalog claims.

I remember when I would have liked to have a left hand bolt gun too. By the way, Savage rifles were mentioned, they used to have a good reputation, don't know what they are these days though.

Remington 40X's were good rifles too, but if still made, they have gone way up in price, I suspect, and I personally never liked them for rapid fire.
 
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