please critique me

Kilroy -

Moving forward and ordering the suspect around (as seen by a jury) would not put you in the best light. No matter what you think of things and how they should be...

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Call it a gut feeling

Guess your best won't stand up very well in court. You don't know who you are dealing with and what their history/record/state of mind is going to be.


Never advanced on BG - only stood my ground. Agree that is not the most tactically appropriate thing to do, but retreat into the car was not available and moving back would only put me in the open with nothing between me & the rest of the group, as well as move from light to shadow.

Agree that I did not know who he is or what his history & state of mind were. But how many of us do know that till afterwards? I made a decision to take a stand, and got away with it. Given that I will probably do the same in the future, I wanted to hear what glaring errors I made and what I could do better. We all agree that let him get way too close, and I admit that the only reason I did not draw down on him was bad thinking. However, some experience with the "type" and with the hand-waving vs fists balled up scenario colored my actions. I do not say what I did will work for others, or will work next time if even only 1 variable is different.

Let's take what DID happen, as it happened, and critique me on that basis. emember, if I had the advantage last night of everybody's hindsight I'd probably be talking to my lawyer about a shooting incident, if not a pepperspraying. As it happened, I walked away "clean" and the BG is temporarily off the street.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
I usually don't armchair quarterback these things, but since you asked..... :)

Haley - I do not understand "Would you have acted differently if you were unarmed? If so, THAT is what you did wrong." Help me out by giving me some insight to what you are getting at.
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This was some very good advice. Nobody on this forum or elsewhere knows the sublties of the situation like yourself. Haley gave you good advice for examining the situation yourself. The gun you carry only gives you the ability to save your life. It gives you no extra rights, and no extra protection from harm. Of course, everyone should have the right to go into their home without a confrontation with hoodlums. That is not what I'm getting at. Ask yourself the question honestly, and examine the situation.


I myself am just a young buck of 29, and carrying or not, I don't think I would have confronted 6 guys that were drinking in the manner that you did. I think I would have asked them to move so I could get into my apartment, and then said something to the effect of "I've had a long night, and need to get some sleep, could you guys move it somewhere else?"
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I think Bohunter spoke some words of wisdom that were overlooked. One you. Six of them. That's ballsy. When you made your request, they feigned apologetic compliance. Then they made a request that you were not prepared to reciprocate. They knew what they were doing when they did this. Either you would let them abuse your cell phone or you would "dis" them and give the hero a chance to be the big man. They were not prepared for you to be able to defend yourself.

Bohunter's suggestion was not so much of a demand as a request. It is not as confrontational. It, too, may have had the same result, but it does not "dis" these cretins quite so much.

I don't know, a lot of it will depend on the hero cretin you are pressing charges against, but in a lot of instances he would be back on the streets in 24 hours with a wounded reputation to restore. I'm not saying what you did was wrong. I'm not saying what they did was OK. I am saying that the way things are is quite a bit different than the way they should be. I'd watch my 6 for a while. I have a feeling you will see these folks again. They know where you live. You are now on the defensive, and at a disadvantage if they want to engage in social discourse again. That could have been avoided by a little more discretion at the outset.

All that being said, I have to commend you for taking a stand to clean up a problem that is your landlord's responsibility. Your landlord needs to clean up his building. Hopefully you have contacted him.

I hope it works out for you.
 
XavierBreath -

Thanks for clearing up Haley's question. Took me a while to understand it.

What would I do differently if I was not armed? Have not given it a long think, but think I would not have done anything differently.

I have 1 way in & out of the apartment, as the back door is not accessable from the street. Park in the same spot right in front of the door all the time. 3 possible ways to get to the complex, all with great lines of sight all the way around. I will be upping my awareness until well after court the end of May.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
Identifying Criminals

Whenever I've helped out the police by ID'ing a perp, I've always sat in the passenger or back seat of the officer's squad car, rode with them to where the suspect was being detained/questioned, & ID'ed him from the car with the headlights shining into the BG's eyes. I wouldn't want the BG to see me, my car, or anything else that might clue him up that I was the "little bird" in question.

I had a similar experience going back to my truck in a seedy neighborhood after visiting with a friend. There were three very "thuggish" guys leaning on my truck around the driver's side door. I had my hand in my front pocket, with my belt knife under my wrist, on the ready. I walked past my truck & approached the driver door from the back so as not to have my back to anyone when opening the door.

"'Scuse me, fellas," I said, and they dispersed. Of course, I think it was largely due to the ever-presence of my 90lb pitbull trotting along at my side. He tends to make BG's part like the Red Sea. :D

It's nearly impossible to get a CCW in the part of California where I live, but sometimes I feel like I should carry anyway...
 
Xavier made me think of something else. He mentioned watching your six and expect a reintroduction to Mr. BadAss. I would also watch your 12 when entering your apartment for a while. It would be much easier for them to break into the back door (knowing you never use it) and lie in wait for you to come home. As the saying goes, "Revenge is a dish best served cold" and I wouldn't put it past people with nothing better to do to case you, and your apartment, and ambush you, or worse yet, perform the ever popular drive by....
 
Officer Friendly & I finally connected a few minutes ago. Our hero told the magistrate that he woulds never make the pretrial hearing (1100 this AM) so was held w/o bond for pretrial. The judge has him held w/o bond till trial 5/25. My assaukt charge + five (5) :eek: other warrants. I'm off to see the Magistrate to see how I can access the records.

FWIW, my six will be so well watched it will shine. My 3, 9 and 12 will also be glowing as I brush past them. I'm thinking about getting a motion-sensor alarm to put in the car, but right now my mind says "who cares" unless I'm in it.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
lots of good reading and thinking ideas.........

I still give you an (A) for your ability. Some points are worth rereading above too. I know as days go by your thoughts of this event will come and go. It takes some real balls to do what you did and nothing wrong with it. I would likely have done a few things different but I wasn't there and it isn't fair to try to guess the total flavor of the moment with out having lived it. You do need to take an extra second to insure your environment when coming and going.
I still think situation dictates reaction. Text book this -and training that -are nice to have in the back of your mind. Knowlege is power and so is thinking on your feet at a drop of the hat. That said I would rather have a edge more of brain smarts than book smarts. Knock on wood it's kept me alive a few times in the past.... ;)

Take care and becareful out there ;)
 
Only two things I see: Telling them what to do instead of asking at first, and staying in that neighborhood if you're still there. You're only going to get grief in that place.
 
FrankDrebin wrote "Only two things I see: Telling them what to do instead of asking at first, and staying in that neighborhood if you're still there. You're only going to get grief in that place."

Frank, I agree that rolling up & commanding some drunken stranger to do whatever I say is not tactically cool. But please read my original post. I "asked". I've gone over that several times in my head today. I am sure I "asked" as opposed to "told" them to move.

As for staying in the neighborhood - I need to say I'm getting a bit cranky about being told the thing to do is move away instead of standing my ground. I've taken what I consider to be reasonable precautions and hardened my defenses. 24 hours later there are no thugs outside my place challenging me to step outside, and whikle I was away today nobody busted out any windown or otherwise trashed my apartment.

I'm not trying to be a hero, and I certainly do not want to "protect" my lasndlord's property - unless he wants to pay me my current hourly rate of pay and will front the recertification as a security guard. I am not and do not want to be the sheepdog for the rest of the neighborhood. But last night I decided that I wasa not going to allow thise persons to stand between me and my door and delay/prevent me from going into my home.

If it happens again tomorrow I will have to decide all over again. Situational awareness and scene assessment will guide me in whatever I do. Just because I got away with it yesterday does not mean I will get away with it again tomorrow. I know that.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
I probably would have kept my mouth shut, but that's really more of a comment on my personality than an indictment of your actions.

I think that it was probably a good thing overall to comment to them. Although it MAY have generated a situation, it's not 100% sure that the situation might not have come about anyway.

Besides, it's good for people like you encountered to know that they do not live in a vacuum and that they can not simply do as they please without consequences. Teaching them the lesson is not an easy thing to do, but it is something that SHOULD be done.

I also agree with you about not moving. My father got into a similar situation years ago in his neighborhood when it began to go downhill. He could have moved, but that's not the kind of man he is. He visited every neighbor and spoke with them about the problems. He got their agreement to help him report problems to the police rather than ignore them. They ended up taking one of the more problematic persons in the area to court before it was over. It was hard at first, but over time, the neighborhood was much improved and the troublemakers moved instead.

At some point, we have to make a stand. If we simply move when things get bad, the scum win a small victory, but more importantly we leave behind the people who can't move. Elderly/retired people and the financially strapped can't always just pick up and move when a neighborhood degrades. They can end up trapped in a bad situation that only gets worse when everyone else deserts them.
 
Personally, . . . gotta hand it to you, . . . you did a lot better than I probably would have.

About the time he came around the car (after I would have told him to stay on the other side, . . . and then a second time told him to back off), . . . he would have seen the business end of a 1911 leveled at the second button on his shirt and I would have been screaming, . . . don't make me shoot you.

And if he continued, . . . well.................

I don't have the stamina or repairability at my age to tussel with hoodlums, . . . ask nice, . . . warn, . . . warn a 2nd time, . . . get ready to get down to business is my plan.

Good job, you did.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Skidmark: it is to your credit that you care enough to solicit opinions, and sort-out the situation you found yourself in...and to take them in the constructive spirit they are offered.

I'll defer to XavierBreath's remarks, which are more clear than mine. It was late, and in reading your post, I just thought of my personal rule of thumb--to act as if I was unarmed; to wit, I don't do anything while carrying that I wouldn't do unarmed. I didn't mean necessarily that you did anything wrong, just to use that as a frame of reference to reflect on what happened.

In any case, I hope none of us has any difficulty justifying our actions if ever we are called to account for using deadly force.
 
As I got out of the car - hand on CCW in right front pocket & the car between me & them - I casually asked them to put the bottle away or take it inside, as there had been problems with litter.
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You didn't ask them to get away from your door so you could get in, you asked them to put away their bottle, etc. What does their drinking have to do with litter? You implied that you assumed that they were going to throw their bottle on the ground when they were done with it. You pretty much insulted them, and respect is very important to young street "gentelmen" who alread have a sense of entitlement to respect ("you owe me respect because I'm a man") and feel disenfranchised enough as it is. In other words, you "stepped on their manhood", or at least of of their "manhoods". You pretty much blatantly accused them of being "litterers". They likely were, but that probably wasn't a good way to win friend and influence them.

As the other guy mentioned, I probably would have asked them if you could get into your apt. and not made any remarks at all about their drinking or their bottle.

If the neighborhood is declining, as I inferred it is from you post, I doubt if you're going to change the quality of the neighborhood by staying, or even delay its decline significantly, but if you decide to stay, I suggest you carry the phone number of a good lawyer. Also, the stress of living there will take time off of your life.
 
First the news -

Got the info on our hero. He has not been a good person lately:
Trespass
Destroy property/monument (as in cemetary)
Petit Larceny
Concealed weapon - I checked on this -- it was a boxcutter (comments later)
Capias FTA
Assault & Battery (my incident)
Drive on suspended license
Drive on suspended license (a second charge? )
Operate uninsured vehicle
Operate uninsured vehicle (another second charge?? )
Drive on suspended license (no - a third time? )
Expired registration
Misdemeanor FTA

3 felony charges (#2., 4 & 5 above), plus #13 is a Class 1 Misdemeanor which is for all intents & purposes a felony.

Now the comment about the concealed weapon charge/boxcutter --
Again, I admit I got lucky. All I can say is keep your eyes open & learn what to focus on & what not to bother with right then. For me, once I saw the hands were empty my focus was more on his shoulders than the hands themselves.

I think I'm going to ask that this thread be closed now. I thank everybody for their constructive critiqes of my tactical and not-so-tactical behaviors under the circumstances trhat I described. I appreciate all of the wishes for my continued good health and desires that my living siutuation be in a place of peace and tranquility. I ask that you respect my decision, based on current circumstances and my personal thoughts/values, to stay as opposed to moving away.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
Skidmark
Congratulations, I think you did just fine, if everyone runs away there will never be an end what the BGS think they can get away with.
Rather than come back to mess with you these cowards will probably spread the word that this is not a good place to be. WELL DONE!!!!!
 
It sound like you did the right thing. I have a friend who is a cop and asked him about CCW and police. He said the best thing to do is tell the officer and show your CCW liscense. Don't worry about the past and how the situation was handled. This wise ass seems like a trouble maker. So I would be prepared. With 6 of his hoodlum buddies you may consider a high capacity magazine. I would put effort into planning for a home invasion once this guy gets out of jail. The motion detector idea is great. I put one at the top of my steps to my bedroom incase someone tries to sneak in while I am asleep. Keep a cell phone (charging by your bed) and a flashlight and light stick by the bed also. The light stick can be placed in your window for the police to see easily after 911 is dialed.
I would employ the wait tecnique. If the alarm goes off. Grap your weapon (HK usp 40) 13 round mag. Roll off the bed grap the shotgun and wait for the human to enter your sight


"See you on the flip side" Boondock Saints
 
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When I'm setting up a home for interior defense for a client I put motion sensor lights in every room except the bedroom. The theory is that there is light wherever there is a human, but the principals in the house are in the dark.

Once, back quite a few years ago. I would be awakened at about 23:00 each night by the light in the living room turning on. After the second or third false alarm, I set watch at the end of the hallway. At about te right time, I heard a movement in the kitchen. Then the light in the living room turned on and I saw my big tom cat coming down the hallway. He would come in the cat door, jump up on the end table where the motion sensor was mounted and jump down in front of it, triggering the light. :D I moved the sensor. He was disappointed.

Pops
 
Cheers,

I know that you asked for this thread to be stopped - but it wasn't - so here I go!

I had a "similar" situation, happen years ago - and I handled it totally differently than you - yours' was the BETTER way.

I confronted them (gang members) and displayed my weapon - stating that I had 14 rounds, plus another clip in my pocket.

"Big boy" stated "I don't have a gun" - I responded "You will when the cops get here". He really had one, it was just "hidden" so I couldn't see it. At that point, with the crime in the neighborhood - I didn't care if he had one or not. HE would go down - weapon in hand!!!

I have taken "life" - it's tough, but you'll survive it!

I wouldn't do that scenario(sp?) again, but back then - yea, I'd have "popped" the dude.

Maybe it's just me, but the times I've "shot to kill" - I was talking to the people on the ground, and I don't have any problems with what I did or what I experienced. To me, it carries forward.

"Sorry dude - you feel "dis'ed" - well my Smith doesn't care WHAT you feel! I "point" - you're dead!" YOUR call.

Mama used to tell me that "violence doesn't solve anything" - well, Mama LIED! I found that out in Nam, Rhodesia, Ache - everywhere else in the world you want to look! "Violence" works!" Make it work for YOU!

If you can keep from starting it - then "Good on ya" - but don't plan on it! "Hope for the best, plan for the worst".

"Two feet - DEAD dude! Sorry Skid - that's just the way it is.

Your way was/is better - I just worry about "later" - when he gets "free" - you gonna feel better when he's around and p*ssed?

"Bang - dead" - works for me!

cr
 
crashresidue,

Know what you mean. Been there, done some of that, and have patched the holes in the souvenier t-shirt a time or two.

I know the risks I was taking, and was probably more stupid that anyone has called me for taking them. Especially on the let-him-get-up-in-my-face issue.

But I ask you (and everyone else) - what do you do about a guy in your face, talking loud and waving his hands in the air, if he has not yet made a verbal threat and you do not see his position or hand-waving as threatening gestures? I told the guy to back off or get sprayed. He backed off. I got lucky. :)

FYI - tonight will be 1 week, and all that I have had happen so far is 2 neighbors coming over as I was out of the car, to say "thanks" and to talk about the fact that since the encounter there have been no people hanging out on the corner after dark.

If, and when, the BG gets out of jail I will deal with whatever happens as it happens. In the past week I have put in a bit more range time, and a few extra practice sessions on drawing from concealment, from sitting in front of the TV, from laying in bed, and from getting into & out of the car. I'll also put in a shameless plug for the two different brands of laser trainers I have. Using them saves on ammo and at least once on the cost of replacing a car window.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
Confrontations

Crash, I agree. You could've handled that much better. Was there any dialogue before you started brandishing a weapon? Why not be tactful instead of straight-up threatening? Your Mom was right: violence never solved anything. Do you think this guys friends will ever forget you if you gun their buddy down? Violence begets violence. Just look at the Middle East.
 
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