Plainclothes/Concealed Carry: Worst Possible Outcome

Thank you FireForged.

While I carry, I also carry a phone, and I'll sure be trying to get the # to 911 from somebody ASAP.

After seeing to the safety of my family, I'd do my best not to do what I haven't been trained to do.

I'm not the police, the FBI, a PI, Captain America, The A-Team, Deputy Dawg, or even Danger Mouse.
 
Glenn Dee's posts really took me back...

Glenn Dee's posts really took me back to my days growing up in NYC in the '50s, when those "on the job" carried only blued steel .38 revolvers, and a cop could identify himself as a cop by "showing tin" (the shield) or just "showing steel" (the gun).

My dad was with a bi-state LE agency and knew several NYPD detectives. One of them would take us kids to the movies. We'd get on the bus and he'd say to the driver, "Nice day, isn't it?", while pulling his jacket back to show his holstered revolver. At the theater it was the same move with the same line; he never showed the tin. Naturally it was all "on the arm". I think he "treated" us to ice cream from the Good Humor man the same way. Ah, the good old days!

BTW, an undercover or plainclothesman would identify himself to uniforms by his last name and the number of his "house" (precinct), e.g. "Miller! One-Three!"

I think Frank Serpico was one of the first NYPD undercovers to carry other than a blued revolver (although I know of at least one detective who carried a double-barreled coach gun under his overcoat!); they said Serpico carried a "14 shot 'auto'", which I assumed meant a BHP.
 
Hmmm...

Wouldn't the situation dictate the type of weapon an UC would carry?

I mean if he's UC for buys or reverse sting type then maybe a S&W J-frame on the ankle, but if he's going deep into say Hells Angels then why not the biggest baddest .45 he can find tucked directly into the front of his pants. That is after all, what the HA would expect to see one of thier members carrying. Or hell if the dept. allows it the UC could carry something illegal for cred w/ the target. He could even use the ruse of selling illegal arms to get in good (as long as none of the arms he sold actually worked or ever actually changed hands).

Just some thought on situation dictating carry. I'm not LE so take what I say with a grain of salt, and a large dash of pop culture movies! :p

BC
 
LMFAOOOO Ringolivio...

I doubt most people even know what your screen name means...lol
Man we had games that would last for days... Better Times Then.

Yes Sepico DID carry a browning High Power. Under special circumstances members of the department could carry unauthorized firearms. Back in the 50's the blue gun rule wasnt enforced. As long as you had a proper service revolver. My uncle was "ON THE JOB" at that time. He owned and carried his service revolver, a blue steel J frame chief special, a I frame 32 in blue steel, and a baby browning .25 pistol.

However enough reminiscing. The NYPD also will issue a non police type pistol to MOS assigned to undercover status, for the duration of their assignment. I wont share the make and model... but it's a fairly common gun. Undercovers may also purchase their own non-regulatrion gun. For a while the high standard derrengers were popular. An undercover I know used an older Colt Det. Special where he broke the handle, and taped it together with electrical tape. Carried it mexican with loose odd bullets in front right hand pocket.

Yep the actual way one pronounced their command was one way to be identified... but it wasnt perfect.

As far as the coach gun's?.. lol Up until the day I retired "savage 311" double bbl 18" 12 ga shot guns were in the departments inventory. In a big way. Before the days of Tommy tactical, CDI factor, ATAS fashion shows, police work was done with as little fan-fair as possible. That particular gun can be broken down and hidden in a small duffel bag, or even hidden in ones clothing. Yes it could be hidden under a coat. Thats the beauty of the gun. These guns were assingned to most detective squads, and plain clothed units. Along with ithica 12.ga pump 37's in some cases.

Bullcoop... I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head... except for the most part bad guys dont wear holsters, and carry so they can get rid of the gun as easlily as possible.
 
""A 22-year-old civilian football player was also killed by gunfire."" copied from post #1

Are there football players other than civilian.

I know LEO like to think they are not CIVILIAN. They sure aint military.
 
It was a melee, folks. Things had already gone horribly wrong and they stayed that way for some time after the cavalry arrived. These things develop from out-of-control circumstances and overwhelming force is often the only thing that brings them back under control. Casualties are, unfortunately, going to occur.

Your opponent(s) may have friends in the neighborhood and they may be racing to the sound of gunfire, from any and all directions. You need to not get killed before the cavalry arrives, and remember that bad guys have cavalry, too. Either outfit will shoot you if you do something stupid enough. Fade away to the safest refuge, call for help and maintain a defensive mindset. Shooting the other guy is not a win. Surviving the entire encounter is a win.
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Officers- absolutely carry your badge/ID case anytime you may be called upon to offer armed intervention. It ain't Popeye's Spinach Can, but it might keep you from getting lit up by your own kind.
 
I think just saying Citizen is much better than trying to use Civilain. I am well past middle age and Civilian to me mean (someone not in the Military)
 
rburch said:
From the witnesses quoted in the article, it seems like the plain clothed officer for some reason (fearing for his safety or because he thought someone in the crowd was trying to take his gun) fired at someone in the crowd.
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He may also have been "maced," at least according to one witness.

rburch said:
The uniformed officers were just arriving and see a man in civilian clothes fire at the crowd, and react by drawing and shooting him.
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But then there's the issue of perforating him while he was on the ground. There certainly are no shortage of questions regarding this incident. I wonder who shot the other officer in the foot--was it a civilian, the officer who died, or perhaps himself, and might that have been a factor in the volume of fire involved?

rburch said:
Not really sure how you could go about completely eliminating this type of incident but maybe if departments issued those safety sash things. Forget what they're called, but look like the sashes beauty pagent contestants were, only they say Police, or Security or something like that.
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You could still get shot while trying to identify yourself with equipment that is not in plain sight at all times. It would be safer to not involve plainclothes officers in situations such as these (unless everybody is identified ahead of time), and if that is not avoidable in certain instances, then those who are not in uniform should behave as civilians would in the presence of uniformed officers.

FireForged said:
I think just saying Citizen is much better than trying to use Civilain. I am well past middle age and Civilian to me mean (someone not in the Military)
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That's what "civilian" used to mean, strictly, but for lack of a better term it has come to mean anybody besides those serving in the armed forces OR law enforcement; while the latter are technically civilians, when on duty they have legal authority that other civilians do not, so it makes some sense.

The term "citizen" is no better because although it has undergone a similar evolution in meaning, its original, strict definition is very broad--in my opinion, this actually makes it worse because both soldiers and cops can be "citizens" and not "citizens" all at once.

On top of that, the distinction that we're really trying to make is between cops and non-cops, with the latter term including soldiers who are neither on deployment nor on base. Maybe we should use "non-cop" or "non-LEO" or something similar but better if we're going to argue over "civilian" versus "citizen"--either that or we should make sure that the context is always clear, use either existing term, and just let it slide. ;)
 
This remains a problem for me - my LE career was 100% plain clothes.
And it is a bigger problem than some think. Right now, in any city or town, you can have plain clothes local cops, sheriffs, Marshals/Constables, State Troopers, State Liquor, drug, vehicle, etc. etc. officers, and the entire alphabet soup of Feds: FBI, DEA, ATFE, ICE, IRS, and on and on, plus all their Inspector Generals, all armed.

As for badges, you can buy "Concealed Weapon Carrier" badges on the net, or at the flea market - a bad idea in my mind.

So, how do you sort them out? As already noted, put your gun down and play 'kiss the concrete' until things settle down.

NOTE: I do not use the phrase 'drop the gun' - dropped guns can go off, and if it is mine, I usually carry a custom made gun that I don't want damaged. I will put the gun down in a manner that makes it clear I am complying with orders.
 
I think Sarge pretty much nailed it in post 48. Fade out, don't get involved unless you have to. Nobody is going to think less of you because you didn't jump in to a writhing melee and try to end it. Nobody is going to think less of you for not trying to shoot it out with some guy shooting up a crowd.

Your CCH permit does not make you a cop. It does not make you bullet proof. What it does is let you carry a gun in public. That is all it does. Unless yo are a LEO don't try to play the role. They get paid for it, they have the training for it, they have balistic vests, and they have a lot more lawyers to back them in whatever happens.

Survive. Then you can go home and kiss your family or pet your dog. Becoming a dead hero does nobody any good.
 
One more thing to remember. In some states you can not use force to stop a person if they are not the instigator of the fight. If that 260 pound guy beating on a 175 pound guy didn't start it, you get charged.

Some states are also duty to retreat states. That means if the threat to your life or the life of your loved one can be avoid by leaving, you better leave. If you decide to jump in to the firestorm instead of cut out the fire exit, with your kid under your arm, you can be charged. Keep up with your laws as they are constantly changing.

If a cop shows up, put the gun on the ground. Get on your knees with your hands behind your head. If the situation is still active, get prone. Don't try to argue your case or tell your story right then. They do not care. They will ask you when they feel safe conducting interviews. Let them secure the scene before you get talkative. An extra voice in the chaos can be a deadly distraction.

Remember even criminals say, "yes sir" and act polite. Do not expect that to get you released or to help validate your story. Be polite as a matter of course, just don't think, "why are they being so mean when I'm being so nice." Cops deal with all types and chances are they aren't going to believe any one story untill they get multiple statements from you and other witnesses. Yes they will ask you for multiple statements. A lot of people get tripped up when they try to lie. So, if they have to try multiple times it is easier to catch them. The advantage is that it also helps witnesses remember more information. So, there are reasons you need to give multiple statements to multiple officers.

Okay, I'm getting off topic. I just want everybody to stay safe and understand some of what is coming their way. I have dealt with police after a SD situation. I also work around police. So, I have seen how they handle situations from both sides.
 
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Was told of an off-duty cop (with gun out) who was chasing a BG and was himself gunned down by a uniform. Recall seeing a uniform gun down some supposed perps running from an establishment...turned out they were hostages...friendly fire happens.

During CCW training (Detroit area) was taught that before drawing in any situation to be 100% certain that situation warranted it, to NEVER draw in the middle of a situation when I may not fully know what is going down, and if the cavalry arrives to hit the ground spread eagle.

"If the perp won't get down I put him down," is what a cop told me.
 
MikeNIce, can you identify a state that has a rule as you describe? All the states I know of follow a 'disparity of force' rule. If the little guy started it, the 'heavier' guy can only use the necessary force to subdue the attacker. Once he has been subdued, if the bigger guy continues, he becomes the aggressor.
 
Sleuth,
In NC if a person instigates a fight they lose the right to defense by lethal force. Even if they are on the losing end of things in a bad way, they have no right to lethal force. The big guy might get charged with murder or manslaughter. However, if the little guy shoots the big guy he will get charged.

The big guy does become the agressor. However, that is legally different than the instigator.

That is how it is trained in CCH permit classes. That is also what I have been told by a police officer that is certified to instruct "civilians" (read armed guards and cch permit classes) on firearms and use of force.
 
Mike, I would bet the law requires the "defender" to stop when the threat is neutralized. Being attacked is not a license to 'punish' your attacker, only to defend yourself. Otherwise, someone could claim he was attacked so he could beat the snot out of someone he did not like. At some point, "defense" becomes "assault".

In rereading your post, it would seem that the instigator gives up his right to life by instigating the assault. True? Not all assaults justify the use of deadly force.

But then, I do not know your state laws. And I can recall when it was still illegal to drive a car in Massachusetts without a flag man on foot 50' in front, to keep the horses from being scared. So there are a lot of strange laws still on the books.
 
You are right in that the "defender" can still be charged. However, as weird as it is, the instigator does give up the right to lethal force.

The only exception is if he verbally and visually attempts to retreat from the fight. However, you won't always get the chance to do that. Many people that instigate fights probably aren't going to do it untill they have been smashed up pretty bad. So, it really becomes a bit of a mute point.

That is why if things look liking they are escelating I will say, "I don't want a fight tonight, I apologize." Then I leave. It becomes obvious to those watching and any cameras that I was not instigating and that I filled NC's duty to retreat.

I think I'm hijacking the thread, so I will stop at this point.
 
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