Pistol powders , burn rates , bullet weights and how they work together ??questions??

+1 What BOONDOCKER385 said.

Like a heavier crimp will fix all your problems ???

Well, probably not ALL YOUR PROBLEMS, but likely a few problems here and there. I know you don't have all the room in the world to adjust crimp in auto pistol cartridges, but I can't count the times that increasing the crimp just a little has made so-so loads good and good loads better. It's a little difficult to gauge, but probably 90% of the times I've tried it, 1/8 turn downward (into the press) worked very well. It has the virtue of being easily tried without having to change charge or projectile weight.

I've found the same thing that Boondocker385 has, with 700-X. For loads that duplicate factory ballistics in .38 Spl. or .45 ACP, it is economical, clean-burning, and meters "okay, not terrific". My two favorite .45 ACP loads using 700-X are 4.6/700-X/200SWC or same charge with a 230LRN. Accurate, pleasant, clean burning, and not without authority on the delivery-end. I've used 700-X in .38 Spl., and it works well, but I've switched to Unique or Herco for all my .38Spl./.357Mag loads, because it gives better velocities in Magnum-pressure loads. Same story with 9mm. My "go to" 9mm load is 5.8/Herco/124 or 125 of any configuration. It's worked well in every 9mm I've run it through.

I have no experience with Tite-Group nor with LongShot, but I was given an opened pound of HS-6 from someone I trust, and tried it. As was mentioned, it worked pretty well in .45 ACP and 9mm(especially with bullets > 124 gr.) when pushed very hard, but I found it was at its best in rounds like .357Mag or .38 Super. Just from what I've read and heard from people, I'd expect LongShot to be better-suited to the same class of cartridge.
 
Briandg,

Note that you actually would not want a powder either that peaked at the muzzle or that maintained peak pressure all the way down the tube. Naramore experimented with cutting a rifle barrel back (30-06, IIRC) until the bullet was exiting at right around the peak pressure point. The bullet was severely deformed by being subjected to such high accelerating force without a barrel surrounding it for support.

The other reason for not wanting such an arrangement is the severity of the muzzle blast and the blinding fireball it would create.

Bullet%20Distortion%202014-03-18_zpsjtmapppf.gif
 
true. The pressure would obviously have to be brought down at the muzzle, because that explosive exit would cause everything you say. Extending that pressure peak a bit longer is how the slow burning powders work, by extending the length of combustion, right? It's just a matter of getting everything perfect, and we'll have the best loads ever.

I read in a book by John Howe that he had worked with 5,000 fps cartridges, and that they would be commercially available. soon...

Still waiting. I seriously doubt that the 5k level will ever be reached in any publicly available load that can be used for any practical purpose. would we even want to take that after an elk?

Maybe a 5' long barrel, 250-300 grain .338 bullet in a 50 bmg based round? I have no idea.
 
Thank you Uncle Nick. I don't understand all you said, but I'm thinking it through.

I have read that 45 ACP is a unique study due to the straight walls, short case, and comparatively large diameter, that "fast" powders tend to perform as "slow" powders do in longer, smaller diameter cases.

1. I don't know if this is true, but
2. If it is true, I don't understand it very well.

Unless this constitutes thread veer, I wonder if UN could elucidate further?
 
Look back about fifty years and. You'll find .45 divided into "hard ball" and "soft ball". Almost nobody eased lead. They used identical jacketed bullets but got very different velocities.
 
Wow. Almost all competitors in the non-service matches I knew used lead. H&G 68 mostly.
Service matches were hardball and 230gn--often issued service ammo
 
So I went and shot that CFE pistol and the 200gr XTP's again . This time I seated the bullets .020 deeper in hopes of creating more pressure . They were a little better but still got very sooty cases . I went up in .3gr increments with 4 loads . The last load was very snappy but still had quite a bit of soot . As much As I wanted it to , that powder is not going to work with that bullet .

Next up will be 9mm for the CFE pistol . Although I do have some 230gr XTP's I still need to test but not sure If I want to bother with the CFE and 45 anymore .
 
CFE Pistol, 124gr. 9mm

I'm struggling finding a sooty case cure also. Using Precision Delta 124gr hp over CFE Pistol. Started with COL of 1.140 using 5.4-6.0 grs. powder. Soot down to ejector groove until got up in the 6.0 grain loads. Not perfectly clean but better. Accuracy was best through my Glock 26 in the 5.4-5.6 gr. range. I loaded more using those powder charges but with COL of 1.10. Still sooty with deeper bullet seat depth but improved ES/SD numbers.
Examples of 5.4gr CFE Pistol over 124gr PDHP. 20 round test strings.

COL 1.140....avg fps 1056; ES-61;SD-18
COL 1.10.....avg fps 1100; ES-40; SD-12

Next tried 5.5gr. CFE Pistol over 124gr PDHP; COL-1.10 but cranked up the crimp. Using Lee 4 die set, went from 1/2 turn "average" crimp to 3/4 turn "firm" crimp. Didn't chrono these loads because more concerned about cleaning up sooty cases without losing accuracy from over crimping/damaging the bullet jacket. Accuracy good but cases still sooty. Thought maybe loose chamber tolerances of a Glock could be the issue but get same sooty cases from RugerP89. Also... the factory loads I shoot all come out soot free.
What is the factory load magic? I get sooty cases using Power Pistol and CFE Pistol until the loads get at or above 6.0 grains.
Shot thousands of 9mm using PB and SR4756 and don't recall ever having this issue. Maybe I always loaded on the "hot" side in my younger years? Looks like that's what the new powders require.
 
there is a possible problem that may or may not be at issue. I once used a hodgdon powder, hs1, I believe, that was very heavily graphited, a rather poor choice overall for the .38 loads I was using, and it wasn't necessarily a sooty burn, but just dirty as heck. Gun was dirty, hands got dirty, so forth. Between inefficient burn and the heavy graphite it was just sooty as heck.
 
Probably HS-5, HS-6, or HS-7. All older St. Marks spherical powders that are slower than the 231/HP-38 that is their powder that is popular for target loads. HS-6 is still available, and was once a popular full power factor powder, but Power Pistol and others have mostly taken its place. None of those HS powders is fast, and, in general, the slower the powder, the higher the pressure you have to run it at to get reasonably clean burning. Slow powder and low pressure don't go together for that and several other reasons.


Stubbicat,

Expansion and sectional density are the key things to understand. When the cartridge is assembled, there is a certain amount of volume under the bullet for the powder to start burning in. This is usually called the powder space. But once the bullet starts to move forward, the volume the powder is burning in grows behind the bullet as it moves. The shorter the powder space and wider the bullet, the less distance the bullet has to move to double the powder space, and if the pressure is to be maintained, the powder has to make twice as much gas by the time it gets there. If the pressure is to increase, it has to make more than twice as much gas by the time the bullet gets there. The faster the bullet moves, the faster the powder space doubles and the faster still the powder has to make gas if pressure is to be maintained or increased.

That brings us to sectional density. This is the other thing that affects how quickly the powder space can grow. Sectional density represents how much bullet mass each square inch of the bullet base has in front of it. Since the force applied to the bullet base to move it forward is the pressure divided by the number of those square inches of base, the less weight each square inch has in front of it, the less inertia that force has to overcome and the faster the bullet accelerates under that pressure.

So, if you have a bullet with a short powder space, and a wide bullet with low sectional density, it doesn't take much pressure to get the bullet scooting forward pretty fast, and you need a fast powder to make gas fast enough to keep up with that. Otherwise you have to settle for just burning powder real fast and accepting that pressure will drop off real fast as the bullet moves forward, expanding the powder space.

Both strategies are used, depending on whether the powder you use is digressive of progressive. Digressive powders like Bullseye and the very fast Vihtavuorin N310 or Hodgdon Clays, burn from the outside surface in, and the material burns equally fast until the grain is consumed. So it makes its gas as fast as possible and quits, and when that's done the pressure in the bore drops as the bullet moves forward. These powders are called digressive because, if you burn them in a special constant pressure vessel, the rate at which they make gas diminishes as the grain burns inward. That's because the burning surface area is getting smaller and smaller and the rate at which the burn eats the grain inward is constant in constant pressure.

Progressive burning powders do just the opposite. The longer they burn, the faster they make gas until they run out. There are a couple of strategies used to make this happen. With stick powders they put little tunnels called perforations inside each grain, then put a deterrent coating on the outside of the grain so the outside burns very slowly. But not the inside. So the flame spreads into the perforations where they burn from the inside out. That means the diameter of each tunnel keeps getting bigger, providing a bigger and bigger burning surface area that provides gas faster and faster until it runs out of tunnel wall material.

Spherical progressive powders have deterrent coatings that penetrate into their surface, becoming less concentrated as you go from the surface toward the center of the grain. This allows the outside surface to begin burning slowly, but speed up as it burns toward the center. In that way they can make gas faster and faster up to the point the remaining surface area is so small that even burning at its top rate it can no longer keep it up.

The idea behind the progressive powders is that because they start burning slowly, you can put a lot more powder in without making enough gas to created too much pressure when the bullet is just starting to move. As the bullet goes down the tube a progressive powder makes gas faster and faster, actually raising the pressure as the bullet moves and expands the space. It continues that way until it burns the bulk of the powder out. The slow burn start gives the bullet time to expand the chamber before a progressive powder has made all its gas. This means the pressure peaks in a larger total powder space, which takes more total gas than reaching the same pressure in a smaller space does. So, now as the bullet goes still further forward after the pressure peak, the pressure drops off less rapidly than it would if the pressure peak had been reached with less gas in a smaller space. In effect, by delaying the peak, progressive powders get more total space to peak in which lets a larger quantity of the powder be safely fired . This gives you more gas which keeps acceleration from dropping as quickly as the bullet moves beyond the the peak pressure point in the bore.

In real life it isn't quite that simple, but that's the general idea. Even a big charge of progressive powder in an overbore rifle can't keep up with bullet expansion for more than a few inches before pressure starts to drop. There are several reasons. One is just that the bullet has picked up around half its velocity by then, so it is running away and expanding the powder space really fast from that point forward, making it impossible for gas generation to keep up. Also, once the bullet is going really fast, it starts to challenge the speed with which the gas can flow forward after it, so a partial pressure drop develops between the chamber and the bullet base. Another factor is that the powder doesn't actually light up all at once. It normally starts at the flash hole and the flame front propagates forward, so the powder just behind the bullet gets lit later than the rest. This is why you find some unburned grains on the ground out in front of the firing line. The larger and slower you make the charge, the more of that you get, so there's a point where going further just makes for more unburned powder and the bullet doesn't go any faster or has actually lost velocity as compared to a faster burning powder charge. Such slow powder requires higher start pressures to help burn through deterrent coatings, and has a harder time achieving them. As a result, ignition becomes erratic and velocity variation increases.

"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity."
Homer Powley
 
powley had it right. It's not a simple linear thing like black powder, or for that matter, High explosives. Double the charge, double the effect, but taking progressive burn propellants and adding in confinement and backpressure brings about mathematical problems that I don't pretend to even be able to name.
 
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