Pistol powders , burn rates , bullet weights and how they work together ??questions??

M

Metal god

New member
I'm looking for some general info of what "should" work best together . Please no " every this or that is different " so you'll need to test your self .

I'm sure there are some general rules either the industry or you your self have come up with to use as a guide .

I'm pretty proficient in loading rifle cartridges but just started loading pistol ( 9mm & 45acp ) Those who say these are easier then rifle cartridges , well my jury is still out on that one .

OK I guess I should get to my point . I've used for 45acp so far -
1) Longshot and Berry's 230gr platted RN ,
2) CFE pistol and Hornady 200gr XTP
3) HS-6 and 230gr lead cast RN

1) Long shot seems to be to slow and does not expand the case enough to seal the chamber . I get quite a bit of soot on my cases even at max charge .

2) Same as 1 but worse . Soot all the way to the extractor groove on all test yesterday . That's 6.3gr to 7.2gr . That's with a medium light crimp

3) I finally found a load combo that expands the case so no soot appears on the cases :) about dang time .

I'm having the same basic issues with 9mm using
Auto comp and Berry's 124gr RN
HS-6 and Rainier 115gr RN
I did have good results using Tite group and Rainiers 115gr RN but the other two had very sooty cases through out the charges .

I have read some and now believe I'm starting to see the correlation between slow and fast powders vs light and heavy bullets .

My question is of the powders and bullets I'm using . What other combo's are worth trying . I just don't want to waist another 40 - 200gr XTP bullets only to find that combo sucks .

Or am I wrong in thinking sooty cases are a sign of low pressure and those combos or charges should not be used ??

I have to believe there are a few general rules to follow here in these burn rate , bullet weight , bullet type combo's .

If any of you have followed some of my threads you know I'm not afraid of doing the work needed and really testing things out . How ever I'd rather not waist my time & money either .

Any and all suggestions are welcome and feel free to take this where ever it needs to go . Like a heavier crimp will fix all your problems ??? What ever works man , I'm new to this pistol thing and It sure seems harder then I was lead to believe :D

Thanks Metal

P.S. FWIW 45acp Springfield 1911 & XD 45 compact / 9mm XD 9 & S&W shield . Not all guns tested all loads in there caliber . I can be more specific if needed .
 
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I have certainly found some "expected" things and learned that I can "expect" some things with experience... I suppose it is difficult to put those things in to words the way that you are asking.

I can't quite figure out -WHY- you chose those three powders to craft .45 ammo. I kind if think if we polled 20 people who love .45 and load .45 and asked them... those wouldn't come up.

Oh, ha! I can think of one of those expected things:
What works good in .38 Special works good in .45.

I once tried Longshot in .38.
Why? Because I had some on hand and I just loved the stuff in 10mm. And Hodgdon had some published loads for it in.38, so why not?

Well, I can now tell you why not. Because it SUCKS out loud in .38. No way could I attain the velocities they listed, nowhere near. They were awful, sooty, wasteful, a useless and hopeless exercise.

So just going on experience, I would also expect Logshot to be a real turkey in .45. It is a useful powder in other places, I like it a lot.

These days I load .45 with Red Dot and Bullseye. That has worked for handloaders since the dark ages and it works incredibly well for me also.
 
Lots of ground to cover here. Not sure I have the stamina for it - we'll see :p

Before I move on, let me put my bias out there: Judging from what I see consistently here on TFL, I generally load with faster powders for a given purpose/application than most loaders. Sometimes, I think loaders don't understand that pressure is a good thing. I completely understand the trepidation with novice loaders; but experienced loaders? I often see load combinations and just shake my head. I see one "head shaker" in your post . . .

Using Longshot in 45 ACP - I would never use anything nearly that slow for the low pressure 45 Auto. I have two 5" bbl 1911's and I never ever load with any propellant slower than HS-6, and never will. (I have tried slower propellants, and got - not surprisingly - poor results.) And other than full-throttle rounds, I usually use propellants like Bullseye, AA2, & W231/HP-38 (trials with TiteGroup forthcoming). In 45 ACP, even the spunky-fast Bullseye can drive 230gn slugs 800+ f/s with no trouble.

And I believe that CFE is probably too slow for 200gn bullets. (Might be okay for 230's, but I've never loaded with it to give a definitive.)

The HS-6 with your 230gn lead slugs should have yielded decent results - assuming you pumped them up good enough to give HS-6 enough pressure to burn right. (I like HS-6 with 230gn jacketed/plated bullets; loaded up good n stout - that's a winning combination.)

Keep in mind that a little case mouth blowback is okay and more or less normal. Most of my 200gn LSWC target ammo has some blowback around the mouth. But soot all the way to the extractor, as you described, is problematic.

Thinking of your expensive 200gn XTP's; I would consider TiteGroup. It's a fast powder, but has enough "slowness" to it to bring some velocity to the party. I'd be willing to try it (and just might some day). HS-6 will drive them hard, but don't expect clean burns until you get to the top end of your load work up. I've gotten HS-6 to drive 185 JHP's really hard, with a clean burn. If it can do it with 185's, it can do it with 200 XTP's. These will be full-throttle rounds.

As far as crimp goes, I really don't give it much thought. I set the die where I feel some resistance in the handle, and call it good. Maybe I've just done it so long it doesn't register with me. I've never measured a crimp with a pair of calipers either. Just never put that much thought into it. And never had a problem either (bullet setback, etc.).

Moving on to your 9mm's . . .

Your AutoComp with the 124's should work well (I don't load with AC). But your HS-6/115 combo may be an issue. They might do well if you message them up to the top of the scale - maybe. But HS-6 runs much better under 124's; or better yet, 147's. HS-6 really likes 147's; be it lead, plated, or jacketed.

You mentioned TiteGroup with your 115's - now that's the way to go. 115's like a good quick pop - especially with shorter barreled guns. I would even be willing to give TG a whirl with the 124's. (That combo is on my things-to-do list, actually.)

In general, heavier bullets give you more consistent burns. Your pressure curve is steeper - giving you less margin for error. But after a prudent load workup, the result is usually a good running round. I like heavy bullets - even with my fast powders ;)

So with heavy bullets, your pressure ramp is more steep as you move up the charge scale. i.e. for each increment of powder charge increase, there is a larger increase in pressure, relative to a light bullet.

Light bullets are good for novice loaders (and their intended applications, of course) because the pressure ramp is not as steep. For each increment of charge increase, there is a smaller increase in pressure, relative to a heavy bullet. This yields a broader "window" of usefulness. But it comes at the expense of a less consistent round (usually). Your most consistent rounds, with low Standard Deviations are usually with heavy bullets. I had a 45 ACP round with a Hornady 230gn jacketed slug (it's not in production any more :( and I can't think of the name of it right now); with 5.7 grains of W231 under it, I consistently got SD in the low 5's. And velocities in excess of 800 f/s, I might add. Yep. Heavy bullet. Fast powder. Really steep pressure curve. Really consistent results.
 
Some good information there. Interesting that hs6 is one of my favorite 9mm powders with light bullets.

You can fire are revolver with bleach powder and wine corks. Loading for semis adds complications. You do have to find good combinations and assemble your rounds with care.
 
I guess that a simple rule of thumb is that fast powder belongs in smaller cases and cartridges with lighter bullets. larger cases function better with slower powders most of the time. Heavy for caliber bullets must have slower powders for both efficiency and safety precautions.

A powder charge, measured in grains, that will be safe in a handgun with heavy bullets will be dangerous with the same weight charge with fast powders. a slow powder with a small case or a very light for weight bullet isn't going to reach full potential, and may even become a blooper that barely makes it downrange.

Fast powders in any cartridge require smaller charges, and in some that require very small charges such as bullseye in anything with heavy for caliber bullets, you don't have a lot of room for error. A few grains, in some cases even a few tenths of a grain, can push pressures too high.

As with rifles, a handgun will ordinarily function well with a nearly full powder charge. Rifle cartridges, in general, function well with a charge that is between 90% to 100+% full, but that is not to be taken as a rule. Just a guideline that has been observed for many years by many people.

Myself, I avoid dense powders. I prefer a slower powder, a bulky powder, one that fills a case, rather than a teeny little charge that disappears into the bottom of the bottomless pit of a cartridge. Many of the bulkier powders will fill a cartridge clear to the top, or even spill over if double charged. I want a charge that is so bulky that an accidental overcharge is readily evident. A .357, for example, if a person loads it with bullseye, an overcharge situation can be almost indistinguishable.

Just my thoughts.
 
In general, you are better off using a fast powder for low pressure cartridges and a slow powder for high pressure cartridges (no definition of high and low, but .45 Auto vs 9x19 should be suitable examples). Heavier bullets generally need slower powders.
However, all if based on looking at your manuals and seeing what you might get.
Next, a case exterior covered in soot is a primary indicator of pressure being too low, for your gun and your mix of components. If you fire factory ammo, do the cases come out covered in soot also? If not, your loads are almost certainly too weak.
Are you shooting the start loads or did you work up near to the manual's max?

>OK I guess I should get to my point . I've used for 45acp so far -
1) Longshot and Berry's 230gr platted RN ,
2) CFE pistol and Hornady 200gr XTP
3) HS-6 and 230gr lead cast RN

1) What was your charge weight?
Use cast lead data, unless Berry's directs otherwise. Only data source I have for 230gn lead bullets and LongShot (very much not a normal .45 Auto powder) is 6.0-6.8gn. Velocity shows that there is no benefit to using this powder, unless the data was kept to a very low pressure. Jacketed data is 6.3-6.8gn, so it doesn't look like the lead bullet data was kept to artificially low pressures.
2) I assume you got the CFE pistol data from Hodgdon for 6.3-7.2gn. What was your charge weight?
3) 230gn lead and HS6. I show start loads of 6.9-7.0gn and MAX loads of 7.6-8.0gn. What was your charge weight?
 
I use TiteGroup for all handgun loads in the "light or target" category. Faster powder for lighter loads. 9mm and 40 S&W use AA#7 at 90% of max charge. For 357 or 44 mag heavy loads, I use H110/Win 296 but also have a stock of AA#9 and LilGun that I haven't tried yet.
The LilGun is destined for use in a 300 AAC (mostly). The AA#9 is intended for 357 and 44 mag loads somewhat below the "max loads only" H110/W296 recommendations.
Match the powder to the intended velocity and you'll be happier than trying to make something do what it's not intended for.
 
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Something related, I was once using loads listed in an ancient manual that gave data for seriously low velocities. I estimate that I was getting 1,600 fps out of a 30-06 with 110 grain carbine bullets. Onc in a while, while at rock bottom, I would get a tiny whiff of ammonia scented gas out of the breech. Adding about 10 percent brought pressure levels up to functional levels. At 100 yards it ran a couple inches lower than factory loads. It duplicated 30 carbine ballistics, approximately.
 
Thanks guys

Why those powders and combo's ? Because it's powders I have found locally and found data for . Longshot was the first powder I ever found in 3 years so I bought it . Auto comp was the same . Then HS-6 & Tite group was found a few months ago and last month I found the CFE pistol . There was some Tite wad at the store and 700x & 800x . Maybe those would work better ???

I wish I could match powders to bullets and applications but for now I have to take what I can get .

Manuals : I use Sierra few years old , Hornady 9th , Lyman 49th & cast bullets as well as Hodgdon web site .

Charge weight in general , I will start at min and if there is one full gr or more to work through I'll move up the second load by .3 the the next couple in .2 then the last 5 loads or so in .1 increments . If I only have .5gr from min to max I've been loading all in .1gr increments .

Charge weights 45acp

Longshot & 230gr plated = 6.0 through 6.9 . I went with 6.7gr with soot about half way down the case .

CFE pistol & 200gr XTP = 6.3gr through 7.2gr . All loads had soot to the extractor groove .

HS-6 & 230gr lead RN = 7.2gr through 8.0gr . The 7.2gr had a little soot but the rest looked pretty good and I think I'm going with 7.7 or 7.8 for my load . They seemed to be clean and accurate . I'm not sure what bad leading looks like but my barrel was pretty clean . Most of the barrel was still shinny with a few dull streaks .

Charge weights 9mm

HS-6 & 115gr plated = 6.3 through 7.0 Looks like I was getting less blow back around 6.7gr ( about 1/4 to half way down the case ) Accurate loads were 6.8 & 6.9 .

Tite group & 115gr plated = 4.3 through 4.8 . All shot pretty clean with 4.6gr likely what I go with .

Auto comp & 124gr plated = 4.3 through 5.0 . All had soot but less at the higher charges . I went with 4.8gr as my load .
 
There was some Tite wad at the store and 700x & 800x . Maybe those would work better ???
Click to expand...

I've never used any of the above. But I'm not opposed to trying TiteWad. It's fast. Real fast. If I were to cross paths with it at my LGS, I'd be tempted to grab a pound. But I load differently than you. First of all, about 90% of what I load is revolver, so I need not concern myself with gas production and slide operation. yadda yadda

Point is, TiteWad might work well for your lighter bullets in both calibers, but may not make balanced rounds with your heavies.

700X & 800X have reputations for metering crummy - especially 800X. There's an active thread on it right now. Metering aside, 800X is too slow for any application you mentioned - it'll give you the same fits as Longshot; along with crummy metering.
 
Is there any correlation between burn rate and powder charge .

I see there seems to be some but how specific . I was just looking at CFE pistol & HS-6 and comparing there charges for 200gr JHP . CFE is 2gr less through out the min to max then HS-6 and yet they are very close in burn rate . Is this just a density thing ?

Also I thought I'd share what I think may be a big reason the CFE did not do well with my 200gr XTP's . Hornady has the COAL at 1.210 and I loaded them at 1.240 which is .035 off the lands of my 1911 . What I did was found the max COAL my gun would chamber/plunk 1.275 and split the difference with the Hornady 1.210 . ! went with 1.240 for a nice round number .

You guys think seating them .020 deeper will bring up the pressure enough ? I'll tell you what though . 1.210 that Hornady recommends seems to set the straight walled section of the bullet past the case mouth . If not It's right on it .

This gets me thinking about all my loads . Most have been either at the recommended COAL or pretty close but I know there are a couple I seated longer . I'll need to go back and see which are what and if that played a roll in any issues I was having .
 
In general:

The slower the powder the more charge weight you need to achieve a specific peak pressure. This is because the bullet has time to get further down the barrel before the pressure peaks, so the peak is occurring in a larger volume than a faster powder peaks in. The exceptions have to do with energy content of the powder formulation. Exceptions: If you are comparing two powders with different energy content per unit weight and the faster one is the one with lower energy content, then the slower ones charge may not be lighter. Difference in energy is usually comparing a single base powder to a double base powder, as the nitroglycerin usually used in the latter has a 3.52% surplus oxygen balance it contributes to help offset the oxygen deficit normal to nitrocellulose combustion and that varies with the nitrocellulose species (mono-, tetra-, or hexanitrate) balance of the powder. Pure hexanitrate (ideal) has a -24.23% oxygen balance.

The larger the expansion rate, the faster the powder needs to be. A .45 ACP bullet doesn't have to move as far forward to double the volume the powder is burning in behind it as a 25-06 bullet does. In order to raise pressure as the bullet moves, the powder has to make gas fast enough to keep up. That's why a large expansion ratio tends to need faster powder than a small one.

The smaller the bullet sectional density, the faster the powder needs to be. The reason is the same as above—rate of expansion—but the mechanism differs. While a high and low SD bullet in the same cartridge will have the same force on their bases at the same pressure, the greater inertia of the higher SD bullet will cause it to take longer to accelerate under the force from that pressure. As a result, it keeps the space from growing as quickly, giving the powder more time to make the gas needed to keep the pressure up. Here I used SD instead of weight, so that different calibers could be compared. For the same caliber, obviously, SD and weight go up and down together.

For a given barrel length, overbore cartridges have the lowest expansion ratios and short powder column, straight or nearly straight wall cartridges have the largest expansion ratios, so the former can give a slow powder the most time to make gas to keep up with the growth in the pressure volume, while the latter give the powder the least time, assuming same-SD bullets.

Powder burn rates are determined under fixed conditions. Because chemical reaction rates increase with pressure, so does the actual burning rate of a powder in an actual cartridge rather than in fixed pressure laboratory conditions. As a result, a powder that is too slow to work well at a minimum load pressure and temperature will generally do better at higher pressure and temperature where it burns faster and therefore has an easier time keeping up with expansion. Thus, low pressure loads of slow powders tend to be dirty due to waste from incomplete combustion, while a fast powders can still burn fairly cleanly at a lower pressure and temperature.
 
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Uncle really is a bright spot. Read ad learn.

I'd like to add that the best engineers still have to work stuff up by first computer predictions, and then by educated trial and error. There are so many variables. You can even change a charge and ballistics by simply changing the shape of equal sized cartridges, like the new short magnums.

Have you noticed that "ball" powder is flattened into flakes? The powder itself forms inconsistent sized balls, so making flakes allows it to ignite and burn at a consistent manner.

Have you ever noted that certain powders are pierced? Again, the ignite not only from the outside, the also ignite and burn from the center.
 
Thanks. Note that a sphere has the least surface area per unit volume than any other geometry, so flattening increases surface area which affects not only burn rate but the progressivity rate of the burn.

Perforated stick powders generally have deterrents than are applied to the outside surface mechanically in a vibrating hopper. This way the inside of the perforations do not share the deterrent. Thus, when they light up, the flame runs quickly into the perforations which burn from the inside out, meaning the surface area of the burn increases as it progresses. This is how progressivity (making gas faster and faster as expansion from bullet movement occurs) is achieved in these powders. In spherical powders, especially the truly round ones, like H380, it is achieved entirely by having deterrent coatings whose concentrations drop off exponentially from the surface toward the center. Thus, even though the surface are diminishes as it burns, the diminishing deterrent concentration makes up for that and lets it make gas faster and faster until it's nearly burned out.
 
I've wondered over and over whether a single "log" of propellant could do amazing things. Ignition at the core, acceleration as it burns, with exposure increasing along with the burning. You c o old almost arrange it so that there isn't a pressure spike, and constant pressure building as the bullet goes down the bore, rather than the pressure dropping as the bullet goes down the bore.
 
See solid rocket motors and design of the propellant "grain"--geometry to burn all the propellant so that remaining propellant all along the motor case acts as insulator until all the propellant reaches the case walls at the same time. Minimizes insulation and maximizes propellant
 
Some great knowledge there folks! My experience with 38 special and 45 auto is that both like fairly fast powders with 158s and 230s. I like unique or 700x for both. Actually I prefer 700x as it has been very uniform in speed and sd for both calibers whether lead or jacketed.
 
Solid rocket.motors or boosters is I
Exactly the idea there is mot early peak, and no drop in the energy production tion.one of the reasons for black 10-22s smokeless powder is that nitro powders and their progressive burn allows an acceleration of burn. The bp loads may use as little as 30 grains, getting velocities that range between 13 and 16. Higher velocity with a lower charge because the charge keeps generating increased pressure from chamber to muzzle.
 
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