Pistol or Shotgun? ?

Dave is 100% right. I had some corrections officers in class this week. One told of going into a tower and having no clue how to check and see if it was loaded and that was after her firearms class. Few shooters will use or practice with a shotgun enough to rely on it. Shotguns seem to attract more testosterone than common sense. Even recreational shooters of shotguns can fall apart in a real deal.
Nobody will discuss a serious concern but I will. Imagine shooting one in a ROOM without ear protection. It is an experience you won't forget. It isn't the noise but the concussion to the ear drums etc. The compression of air will hit that fluid in the ear and you will think you are on a two week drunk. Been there done that.
A shotgun is indeed devastating, but practical application is another issue. How secure is it when you leave home? You may come home and find yourself on the wrong end or it is gone. What about access by kids including your own and others. Trigger lock? How many other family members could use it? Maybe self defense of the home is a one person job. NOT!!You can come up with a ton of excuses but you have to use some common sense. I have trouble finding and getting my shoes on when I wake up. A shotgun is just complex enough to pose a problem.
Frequently residents wake up with the criminal IN the bedroom. What do you do then? If the criminal has you in view do you think they will let you reach for it or anything else?
Clearing a house? PLEASE forget that gun rag nonsense. I wouldn't try it and I've got 40+ years experience. When you do that you in fact become a preditor and it becomes self OFFENSE.
And the "sound" of the gun racking? PLEASE!
Enough cliches and urban legends abound without that one sticking around. Criminals don't run when they hear the police arrive or cops even shoot at them at times. It also tells the crook WHERE YOU ARE and what if the thug racks his shotgun? Wanna go there? I tell rookies that come to class with that one, that on the job they should drive around town at night and turn on the squads PA and rack the shotgun to bring crime to a halt.
Wish it was that simple.
 
I have found, through practice, that the ideal in-house long gun for me is the M1 carbine with 15rd mag of soft points and some spares. It is tiny, light, fast to point, doesn't kick all that hard. The next one for short range is the Mak90 but it is far less suitable. Garand, HBAR15 and 20ga paump would all be worse. The access question is also real and I'd likely end up with either of the Glocks in practice. The plus side is that I'd need to miss 40-50 times with .45 or 9mm and by then most threats would deem me crazy and depart to let me discuss the condition of the walls with the landlord...not that I'd be bale to hear much of that dicussion.
 
I would take the portability of the handgun over the power of the shotgun.
If you have to answer the door late at night, it is much better to have the handgun behind your back than the shotgun at your side.
Just because you only envision using it for home defense, don't discount the possibility of taking it with you on a trip. You will attract much more atention lugging the scattergun to your hotel room, than you would carrying the pistol in your bag.
There are othere reasons, but I'll leave it at that.
BTW, it is hard to beat a quality duty sized .38/.357 revolver for a first handgun.
 
Hantra,

There is a missing ingredient here: wall penetration.

Are there others in your home? In other rooms? Is your home made of concrete or brick to stop the handgun rounds? Are there others in homes withing a few hundred yards of your home that will be endangered by flying bullets?

If you need to be wary of through the wall dangers then a shotgun; perhaps 20 gauge or a 12 gauge with reduced-recoil loads will protect you and others from your misses. And there WILL be misses I suspect even at 10 yards.

With modern shotshells the lead pellets stay in a plastic shot cup for about 15 to 18 feet; then the plastic cup peels away ant the shot pellets continue on. In that first few feet, the likely distance for defense, your shot is contained in that plastic cup and is in actuality a single projectile. Although it won't penetrate a personal armor vest -- it will likely stop and maybe even kill the person from broken ribs and shock as it hits.

That shot cup however is shed beyond 20 feet at most, or if you hit a wall with it. What penetrates the first side of the wall is mostly absorbed by the second side of the wall and has little danger left, if any, beyond even the skimpiest third wall or outside wall of another home. For that reason, after having shot a lot of different loadings at different types of interior and exterior walls -- I have decided on #7/12 to #9 shot in a FAST trap and skeet load for my 12 gauge. At up to 16 feet this is effectively a slug and past that it gets safer faster than any other round and is less of a threat for through-the-wall dangers.

IF you do get the shotgun however, as has been pointed out so well by the other pros here -- you are well advised to practice considerably with it, until you are WELL skilled and at ease with it.



------------------
Talk is cheap; Free Speech is NOT.
 
Hantra/Brandon said:

"...But now, I think I am going to get a pistol, then a shotgun. Just b/c the pistol is a bit more versatile, and I can never predict the situation.
You are never sure that when the time comes, you will be in your safe room pointing the firearm at the door. They may come through the window in your safe room. Then, a pistol may be easier to get at and use than a shotgun.

Thanks for everyone's help! This is a great BBS!"


Whew. Yes. Handguns and shotguns don't replace each other, they complement each other/do different roles than each other.

What to grab, handgun or shotgun in HD? I'd grab maybe both. Note that whatever you get, you need to know how to use it well for ALL anticipated scenarios and then some. Sounds like you are thinking beyond just home defense and this is good. Kinda tough to have the shotgun handy at a walk-up ATM.

I agree with PlusP that house clearing is something you should avoid if you really think there's somebody in the house. Training helps but it doesn't make you superman.

Some stuff you should be able to do with any firearm you choose for self-defense:

-Load, unload, and check the loaded status of the chamber
-Carry in a safe manner yet deployable in a timely manner.
-Hit vital organs on the bad guy(s) in a timely manner at distances you may encounter in your daily life. Not just hit the bad guy, hit his vitals. Lot smaller target now.
-Cover the bad guy and call for help (nice role for a handgun now!)
-Clear malfunctions or at least have an alternate plan/firearm
-Replenish the ammunition you shot

Now do the same during a power blackout. No, I'm not suggesting shooting in the dark. I'd keep a flashlight right by the firearms. A stereo set of amplyfying ear muffs is a great addition, also, if you have time to put them on.

This is a very short list off the top of my head.

Having said that, my preferences in shotguns:

-pump or semi-auto kept clean as a whistle
-no pistol grip
-fixed shoulder stock
-ghost ring or rifle type sights.
-18-20" barrel.
-cylinder bore

Hope that helps.

Edmund
 
The idea of thinking that one will not have to train as much with his/her shotgun compared to handgun training is dangerous. In some cases, the operator will have to train just as much with the shotgun as he/she does with the handgun. When you start throwing slugs into the mix, you now have a solid projectile firing weapon that requires the same shooting discipline as a rifle. Even with buckshot at close ranges, one should practice malfunction drills, ammunition transition (buck/slug) and be fully aware of your shotguns pattern with your chosen buckshot load at various distances.

In some cases, the shotgun will require more training than any other weapon system on the market. It is the most misunderstood weapon available. Knowing you and your shotguns abilities will greatly increase your chances for survival in a confrontation.
 
New to the forum and late to this topic, but here goes.

Most of what's important has been said. If it's solely for home "defense", go w/the shotgun. How efficient you are depends on what you spend.

A forend light is a must. It not only identifies your target (drunk family members so stumble in from time to time), but light can be a powerful control tool.

What type of structure are you in? 00 buck and slug can overpenetrate. Make sure you pattern the gun so you know. An 870P out of the box should hold all 9 00 buck pellets on a silhouette out to about 15 yards. If you got the bucks, get a tax stamp and a 14 inch barrel. Makes it easier to move around inside a structure. Practice, practice, practice. Equipment, training and mindset are necessary tools to triumph over evil. :)

As a side note, 1 round of 00 buck w/deliver about the same ballistic energy on target at once as 4 rounds of .45 ACP.

------------------
Vern
 
Well, this is interesting. I have heard that you don't want a light on your firearm. I understand why you would have one, but I also have heard that it is the fastest way to give your position up, and it gives the bad guy a target.

What do you think?

B
 
Hantra,

Both points are correct to a certain degree. Improperly used, a weapon-mounted light can give away your position. However, in low-light conditions, proper observance of rule #4 (know your target and what's beyond it) almost demands a weapon-mounted light.

The proper solution is to use indirect lighting techniques and stick to the flash-and-move strategy. Indirect lighting basically involves bouncing the light beam to light an area (e.g., light up a room by aiming the light at the ceiling). Flash and move insures that if the BG shoots at the location of the light, you have already moved on to another location (and you can return fire to his muzzle flash).

For more good info, see Gabriel Suarez's "The Tactical Advantage". HTH,

Justin
------------------
Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania


[This message has been edited by jthuang (edited March 14, 2000).]
 
A light on a gun in a low light environment is like carrying concealed - if you have it and need it you can choose to use it. If you don't have it - you are outta luck. With the light you can decide whether or not to use it. With the shotgun, both hands are occupied with the functioning of the weapon so you'll need one mounted. With a handgun, unless you have a light mounted, your off hand can use a light. Giving away your position w/a light is only one of the many tactical issues that can effect your decision to shoot/move/cover etc.
If you have a chance, go to surefire's low light survival school. They teach out of CA, but I think they've taken over the low light training for H&K too. You learn more about the use of light than you ever thought possible. With some of the newer lights out there, light can be a very strong control tool. Point a regular flashlight directly in your eyes in a dark room. We like to process information visually and a good like takes that ability away.

------------------
Vern
 
I like lights on shotguns.

They aren't necessary, but optional- I like the option of turning it on someone.

I don't like them on pistols- personal choice. Training with flashlights to the point of thorough familiarity is a good idea, if you choose to use one. (I'm sure Pluspinc will explain his version of why you shouldn't use one soon after this post- while I disagree, it is not "bad" advice)

Erik
 
You have to look at lights with some common sense. Why don't most cops wear white shirts? The will scream bloody murder about being "seen" and it is a danger and risk. They won't carry a stainless steel or nickle plated gun because it will flash and be "seen." They will wear face camoflage and cammies but put a light on a gun. HUH?
As for identification of a target, there is little mystery about who is trying to kill you. Also there are plenty of sources of light like TURNING ON A LIGHT SWITCH. I've gone into bldg searches where everyone is dancing around like pixie's with flashlights and just flipped on the lights.
Of course the flashlight crowd will come off the walls with some far out way out one in a million "what if" to justify the time and expense. I think the known hit rate even in proper lighting is pretty dismal and maybe we should work more on placement than trying to solve problems that probably won't be there.
My favorite is the bull being spread around about shining the flashlight in some nuts face and he will be so blinded he is defenseless etc. WOW, how far out do we want to go? I like darkness and it is my friend. I can HIDE in it and the thug can't identify me. Since thugs have a 91% HIT rate that sounds like a better option. We keep preaching "cover" and then turn on flashlights. I think I'll keep my "cover" of darkness. As for the survival "school" with flashlights. What product do they sell? Often guns don't work to solve problems, I don't see how putting a light on it will help much.
 
"As for identification of a target, there is little mystery about who is trying to kill you" - Actually there is.

"way out one in a million "what if" to justify the time and expense." - Time and expense of what?

"maybe we should work more on placement than trying to solve problems that probably won't be there." - Yes we should work on shot placement. And the lack of light in a deadly force encounter and the problems associated with it is a problem.

"My favorite is the bull being spread around about shining the flashlight in some nuts face and he will be so blinded he is defenseless etc. WOW, how far out do we want to go?" - Light is only a tool, like any other. It is not a cure all for poor tactics, a lack of training, or ignorance.

"I can HIDE in it and the thug can't identify me." - He doesn't have to.

"As for the survival "school" with flashlights. What product do they sell?" - They sell flashlights. Maybe they know something about light that you don't. S&W runs a shooting academy and they sell guns. So what?! :)

Whether or not you want to use light in a "home defense" scenario depends on a lot of details that we haven't discussed here. Think about when deadly force can be used in your home and how you have to justify it's use. Stay safe.

------------------
Vern
 
Well, in that case, then I should ask if there is a good FAQ on home defense tactics, or where do we get that information.

Once I get the gun, and learn how to use it effectively, I would like to be aware of any tactics that may help if the situation ever arises.

Thanks,

B
 
60-80% of all home burglaries are via unlocked doors. There is a good start.
Next, have a good defensive system BEFORE a shooting such as plenty of motion lights, alarm systems, dogs, and security plans with the family.
Shootings of home intruders are very rare. In the last report in California the number of "justifiable" deaths for the state for 36+ Million people was less than 50 each year. And many if not most were merchants and security officers doing the shooting. Simple math would tell us at BEST it is right up there with the odds on winning a big prize in a lottery.
Most criminals have no stomach for facing anyone with a gun and will avoid occupied homes but about 13% of our home burglaries are to occupied dwellings and about half the homes have guns, so we can assume with ease that at most 6 or 7 % of all burglaries are to homes that are occupied by a gun owner.
If you take even 10% of all home burglaries nation wide and put in the number of deaths from homeowners with guns the odds again are off the charts. We can toss in those without shots fired or woundings, but it won't bring it up much.
Shooters don't like to hear things about locking doors and alarm systems. It is more fun to think about guns and bullets.
That is why the Kleck study based on his select small unverifiable study on the subject is junk science at best. At least the Lott study has a little more effort and validation.
Armed homeowners have thwarted many burglaries with simple acts like shouting or turning on lights or the dog barking. Since they had a gun it is claimed as a "gun save." We need a realistic study on the issue and I don't think anyone wants to do it because of what we might find out. It ain't what we want to hear, but realistic.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top