Pistol grip shotguns

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Duxman

New member
Does anyone have any practical experience to share using Pistol Grip shotguns for Home Defense?

Recoil is my biggest worry. What loads are controllable for this weapon? (With minimum practice)

I have a 12 ga Mossy, but when I look around the corners of my house, its just impossible to manuver in a tight, small townhouse type environment.
 
You mean rear pistolgrip/no buttstock? Most people frown on this configuration because of how hard it is to aim/control while firing (despite what the movies say :confused: ). But if you are dead-set on that configuration i would suggest checking out a Knoxx-CopStock, to reduce recoil and have a folding wire stock if you need it. copstock

And if you decide against it (hope you do :D ) Check out some of the other Knoxx products for recoil reduction.
 
I love Knoxx.

Yeah well aware of hollywood reality and how "fake" it is. I did an article on BoxofTruth - about rock salt having no recoil on shotguns. Not that I would use that - but perhaps there was a low recoil shell available for buckshot

I have their tactical stock installed in my Mossy. Knoxx is an awesome product - absorbs 80% of felt recoil.

If I cannot find a decent load for a pistol grip shotgun, I guess I wil stay with my pistol for HD, and keep the shotgun in the bedroom for defending the bedroom only.

Thanks -
 
There are those really short 12 gauge rounds, originally designed for the Mag-7, don't think they would cycle though even in a ordinary pump. If a pistol grip is a must, 20ga. is the way to go. Reduced recoil/tactical 00 or #4 will have to do...some use birdshot for HD even with stocked shotguns for overpenetration concerns.

There is a position for moving with a shotgun, butt to shoulder, thru the tightest of spaces with weapon retention in mind yet only takes a split second to get on target. You hunch over, and grip it as you would to prepare to fire. but barrel downward to the left. I have heard for the best security it should always rest against that leg as wou walk. I'll find and post some pics if you like, would be more accurate than my description. You have to try it to appreciate how fast it is, let alone for not having a barrel sticking out for people to grab and you to be able to maneuver whereever you could walk. i don't know the name of this or have any documentable training, just something I picked up from a magazine that seems to work well.

Are you trying to find something light enough to be able to look down the barrel? If it does end up staying in your bedroom would you put the stock back on?
I've had a 500 with front and rear Tac Star grips (TSMG style) with a 19" ribbed barrel, and a 1300 Marine Defender with pachmayr rear grip and slim forearm. The Winchester was brutal no matter what, but the Mossberg, I was point shooting (well, indexing, my own unexplainable way) stumps @ 10 yards or so, got solid hits starting the very first time, seriously. This was holding the weapon at about elbow level. Even so it was slower to operate and not that much of a length reduction, really. It just didn't feel right. I eventually put the original furnature back on.
CCW of a shotgun is really the only edge of a PG over a full stock and that would require a barrel far under 18"
 
My advice on the pistol grip is don't. It only hurts you. Literally. If you'll forgive me, I'll explain with a story. A rather long story, so if y'all want the short version just skip to the end.

I installed a folding stock w/ pistol grip on my old Mossberg 500 12 gauge, the one with the 20 in barrel, black as sin, with full length mag. It was great when my roommate and I had a "break in" and we cleared the house. He heard the alarm go off, and as we lived in a bad part of Houston and were both of the 2nd Amendment persuasion, he grabbed his .40 and I grabbed my tactical scattergun. Needless, to say we found nothing. The grip with folding stock was nice for moving around the house, and checking dark corners. But, after a few minutes of handling, the rather thin back of the grip wore my hand a bit. I realized that it would be very unpleasant to keep that stock and grip. So...

I replaced that grip with the pistol grip my Mossy came with. Upon reflection, I decided that some practice was in order. At my local range, I limbered up with both buck (00) and bird (8) 2.75 shells for practice. No 3 inch practice for me. It didn't matter. My first shot was painful, my second was worse, and after I finished about two mags worth (14 or so shots), I quit for the day. It's hard to aim, almost impossible to control, and very , very painful. Especially if you aim by thrusting the gun out as the "tactical' photos we've all seen show. Luckily, I have a tough face...

Anyway, now I have a standard Mossberg 500 with a wood stock. If I need to shorten the length, I just tuck it under past the armpit. It's not as accurate as tucking it into my shoulder, but it will work for my house.

In short, I'd vote against the pistol grip. I would look at the copstock if someone you know has one, or a standard stock and shorten that if you need to.
 
Duxman,

I can't believe people have such a hard time shooting pistol-grip shotguns (shortys) as I read here.

What's the problem with shortys?

This has been discussed VERY recently over at The High Road forums, Shotgun area, under the thread "Anyone have a Mossberg Cruiser .410?" There, we have one guy very much FOR pistol-grip shotguns (yours truly) and one very much AGAINST them.

Read the thread, you decide what's best for you.


But I'll say here:

1. Pistol-grips "shorty" shotguns are just as accurate as longer ones. If he/she can't hit anything with a shorty then a shorty isn't for him/her. But really, it's not hard at all to hit what you want to with a shorty, especially since it often will be used at close ranges...unlike hunting high-flying geese. It also would be good in bear country for backpacking. And SD in the home/apartment. A good solid hit in the torso with a shotgun is better than any caliber handgun hit, so long-stocked or short-stocked -- that doesn't matter -- the shotgun is most lethal.

2. I do not recommend having only ONE pistol grip on the shotgun. Get TWO pistol grips to put on it. Specifically, I suggest the set made by TacStar (front and rear pistol grips). Remove the rear one that came with the gun (store it away) and put on the TacStar set. They will distribute recoil to BOTH hands rather than just the rear one. If you only have one pistol-grip, the rear one -- in EXTENDED (not the occasional) shooting -- will cause trauma to your rear wrist. The TacStar grips are "fat" and so distribute recoil over a larger surface area. Further, both grips are at THE SAME ANGLE -- since they are a matched set -- which also is important. You also must hold the gun in the proper position when firing it to be sure to distribute recoil to both hands as equally as possible.

3. In your situation of tight-confines, a "shorty" shotgun is excellent. Also in that apartment situation, using birdshot (even "Skeet" ammo) is best in order to avoid over-penetration through walls which might injure bystanders. Distances to the target will be close and so birdshot will work fine. Additionally, you can get birdshot ammo that is on the softer end of the recoil spectrum...using buckshot or slugs is the max kick-ass ammo (and recoil) you could use...not required or necessary in a SD situation inside a small or typical apartment. Or, get some "reduced recoil" ammo as others here have suggested. Or, use those "shorty shells" from Aguila...but BE SURE your shotgun will feed them...some can't.

4. How you hold the shotgun as you search for intruders is also important so it doesn't get grabbed away from you...get your tactics down....you shouldn't let anyone get that close anyway. You want it pointed downwards, too, not up like in the movies. Research all this.

5. Unless you are pretty sure of yourself, I would not advocate "hunting" for an intruder in your apartment/home...if you are alone, set up an ambush and let the intruder(s) come to you. Wack them all. If you have family, gather them together and wait for the intruder(s) to come to you. Wack them all. Call 911 first, but you have to deal with the situation yourself until police arrive.

Again, tactics are one half of the SD situation, the gun you choose is the other half. One half alone doesn't improve your chances of survival.

So work out a plan. I can't cover all the points here...you do the research.

But the main thing is a shorty shotgun is almost perfect for tight spaces, and for use from inside a car, too. I carry my shorty (Mossberg 500 Cruiser 12-gauge with TacStar pistol grips) in the car, but it would do just as well in my apartment. But for apartment use, I have a full-stocked shotgun (Mossberg 590A1 MilSpec) partly because it's a large space. As for ammo, I have bullet-proof walls so I could use WHATEVER in it without fear of overpenetration...I just need to mind the ricochets.

Good luck,

-- John D.
 
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I'd agree with cloudcroft. Do your research and see what works best for you. Many people don't like the pistol grip. But, if you do and it works for you, use it.
 
Duxman,

The only reason for moving about in a home where you suspect an intruder(s) is to secure a child or family member who is not in the same room with you. Get a dog, let the dog check things out for you. Your best bet is to set up a place behind cover, with a 'friendly' wall (no doors or windows) to your back, with a (cell) phone available, and bunker up in the dark so that you can cover the (backlit) doorway. Moving around gives away too many advantages to the intruder(s).

If you HAVE to move, learn how to do it as safely as one person can manage (which is still nigh on to suicidal)- get a copy of Louis Awerbuck's _Safe At Home_ video, or his _The Combat Shotgun_ video, and learn to move with a long gun at retention position or 'indoor ready'. If you wander around with a long gun- even a pistol-grip shotgun- stuck out in front of you, flagging every passageway with the muzzle before you get to it, you're offering the gun to anyone who wants to take it from you.

Makes absolutely no difference to me whether you shoot a PGO (pistol grip only) shotgun or one with a folding or fixed full stock or an 11" barreled AOW for that matter, as long as you TRAIN AND PRACTICE with it, so you don't wander down your own hallway some night and hand the gun off to an intruder so he can butcher you with it. Don't get sucked in by myths that can get you killed, please.

lpl/nc (my 18" barrel 870 with a shortened stock is right at 37" long, with a PGO it's 7" shorter. I'd rather have the full stock, thanks.)
 
Thanks guys. This is terrifically informative.

I do not advocate hunting unless (The situations already described above - wife is in trouble and I need to go and help etc.). We have an english bulldog that I can use as a scout (unless he completely snoozes through the encounter). :cool:

My main worry is if there is a breakin - there is no good spot in the master bedroom to defend. There are two doors, bathroom and main hall door that intruders can get in, and with our furniture in there, practically no cover. :(

So my main point of defense would be to go out to where the stairs are and cover the stairs with a HD shotgun (but before I can do that, I need to clear the corridor outside the room....) that is where the pistol grip shotgun can come into play. This would effectively cut off the entire second floor (where we sleep) and keep us safe from intruders.

Nice suggestions I will test all of them, and look into buying some of the accessories mentioned.
 
If anyone ever comes after me with a shotgun, I hope and pray they follow some of the advice above and have one or two PGs on it instead of a real stock.

A shotgun so equipped becomes a large, awkward handgun of great power, poor control and vicious kick instead of the best close range weapon.

For the last decade,I've repeatedly issued this challenge.

The PG fan can shoot any shotgun equipped any way he/she wants, as long as it has only a PG.

I'll shoot a close to stock 870 whose primary decoration is wear marks.

The PG fan can pick the COF,ammo, range etc.

We'll shoot for score, time decides ties, though there will not be one.

Results to be posted here and on THR.

In that decade, NO PG fan has taken up the gauntlet. None,Zilch, Nada. Out of maybe 50 folks, none have walked the walk.

Why? Because the PG only shotgun only works well in Hollywood.

And if we swapped shotguns, they'd trounce me. The PG only shotgun is that much a handicap.

Get a standard stock, a little on the short side and put it on your HD tool. Take a class or just shoot the heck out of it. Learn your weapon.

About the time the pile of empty hulls reaches your knees, you'll agree with me....
 
I did the PG thing once, cuz it looked cool. I'll never use one again. My wrist said "thanks, buddy.."
 
If you use a pistol grip on a 12ga, DO NOT try to sight down the top of the barrel by raising it to eye level. I have a friend who thought he could handle the recoil and he literally demolished is face. Surgery, more surgery and retirement because he can't talk correctly now. And he's no small guy either.

His shotgun looks cool. He doesn't though.
 
Thats a shame, the new Benelli Supernova has a pretty good package along with it. Different stocks and grips and barrels. I f you want to hunt, hook yourself up with regular stock and barrel, the if you want home protection, use the pistol grip... but you don't have to "shoot" unless absolutely necessary... hopefully avoiding any unnecessary damage to you!
 
I never felt an pain at all using the Tac Star Tommygun grips, even with 00. This was @ 6', 140 lbs. (due to Adderall perscription, 185 now). The problem is just that it was too slow and unnatural. With butt to shoulder and cheek weld, you have the best possible control and accuracy. To orient the muzzle with a PG is an eternity compared to simply putting the bead on target. Recoil seems to take maybe 3 times as long, and it doesn't just return on target like a pistol does. I can cycle the action maybe twice as fast with gun at my shoulder than with the gun slightly above hip level. Even with the Tac Star forend...looks like it should be fast. It moves to the rear. Your hand wants to pull it to the left. The difference in distance between right and left hand positions was akward, after a good bit of handling and firing. I just couldn't get used to it, and for me there's no comparing the two. Speed is the name of the game, comfort means a lot, and I for one smoke my PG performance with a traditional stock riot gun.
 
In the end Knoxx recoil reducing stocks are the best way to go. If you have a woman and/or child who might have to use the weapon, recoil reduction and training are the best answers. Most pistol grips hurt when shot. Knoxx doesn't, period. Yes...I am a Knoxx fanboy because they work. I hope you get to try one of their products, as the choice will be clear.
 
Sorry guys,, I just don't buy into this stuff. How many,, or better yet have any of you ever had a breakin? It is fine to be prepared, but most of you sound like Rambo's,, ya,, I know the flaming will hit me because I have offended you..If all your choices were so good, how come police and military don't go this way? They don't because you have little control of a shotgun without a stock. Why not just get a pistol, because at the ranges of HD, you have to aim a shotgun anyways. I think most of you would be better served with a dog and an alarm system. Have you ever thought of the fact you will most likely stand in court on a manslaughter charge, regardless of what happens or how it goes down. I know the male of the species needs to be superior and egos can't handle less. You really need to check out what happens when you shoot someone. It might scare you. Defend you castle, your family and your property,, but watch a few less movies of the Rambo type.. it is movies, not real life.
 
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