Pietta 1851 Wedge Removal
- Thread starter ClemBert
- Start date
olmontanaboy
New member
I had the very same problem with a Pietta 1860 army that I bought from Cabelas. This one I picked out in person, it was the nicest of three they had in stock. I checked it out pretty good, or so I thought, I did not pull the wedge in the store. A few days later I got around to degreasing and disacembling the gun, I tried everything to get the wedge out. I finally made A brass drift concave to fit the wedge face.I placed the barrel on a hard non marring surface with a space to allow the wedge to go into, with someone holding the pistol in place I smacked the sucker with 3lb. mall repeatdly to no advail. I knew if I kept at this I would have damaged the pistol and decided that if the wedge was in this tight their might be some alinement problems with the arbor or the wedge slot might not be cut corectly, I will never know, I returned the army to Cabelas and told them why. I bought a Pietta Rem 58 with the refund. I have a 61 Pietta Navy from Cabelas that's perfect and the wedge came out with a sharp rap from a light hardwood hammer
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olmontanaboy
New member
LOL, Guess I didn't use a big enough hammer
So...who bet on the Gorilla and who bet on ClemBert?
Does this picture give up the answer?
ClemBert tips his hat to the Pietta Gorilla. He won hands down. ClemBert and his vice were no match for the Gorilla. The wedge didn't budge a micrometer and ClemBert's 1/4" brass wedge killing punch bent under the pressure. The 2x4 block started to crush under the pressure so I stopped.
Gorilla 3 ClemBert 0
Does this picture give up the answer?
ClemBert tips his hat to the Pietta Gorilla. He won hands down. ClemBert and his vice were no match for the Gorilla. The wedge didn't budge a micrometer and ClemBert's 1/4" brass wedge killing punch bent under the pressure. The 2x4 block started to crush under the pressure so I stopped.
Gorilla 3 ClemBert 0
I was satisfied with this particular 1851's appearance. The cylinder did not free spin easily but it did turn easily enough when cocking the hammer. There was no binding against the barrel. However, this puppy is going back to Cabelas. I will ask them to exchange it. I would have liked to pump a few magnum loads through it to loosen it up a bit. That may have done the trick to loosen the wedge. But if I shoot it then I own it so I don't feel like risking it. With Cabelas generous return/exchange policy I think the safe play is to switch it out.
robhof
Have you tried presoaking with penetrating oil? If you bought it new, you might want to try the dealer. If not, careful heating of the frame with a butane torch around the wedge and touching an ice cube to the wedge, just before tapping it. The heat expansion and cold shrinkage should give a few thousandth of space. An uncle of mine, who used to do his own smithing, used this tenique to remove barrels on revolvers to change out. This was his last resort method when a long 2x4 wouldn't break the barrel free. He set it up in a padded vice and carefully heated the frame around the barrel and dribbled some water on the barrel, then turned the frame with the board, always worked for him.
Have you tried presoaking with penetrating oil? If you bought it new, you might want to try the dealer. If not, careful heating of the frame with a butane torch around the wedge and touching an ice cube to the wedge, just before tapping it. The heat expansion and cold shrinkage should give a few thousandth of space. An uncle of mine, who used to do his own smithing, used this tenique to remove barrels on revolvers to change out. This was his last resort method when a long 2x4 wouldn't break the barrel free. He set it up in a padded vice and carefully heated the frame around the barrel and dribbled some water on the barrel, then turned the frame with the board, always worked for him.
I really thought that the vice would work.
You did make a nice set up to try that method out with too.
If you could secure the gun in the vice and use 2 boards with holes to provide access to the wedge, I really think that a dead blow hammer and a punch would do the trick.
A hard wood punch might even work.
It's not about the strength of the punch, but the transfer of energy to the wedge.
And they also make plastic dead blow hammers instead of the traditional brass or bronze dead blow, and leather could be used to protect the wedge along with using a steel punch if necessary.
I would probably borrow a friend's dead blow hammer because I know someone who has one that's heavyweight bronze.
Cabela's would take it back if the effort failed anyway. But of course no one would blame you if didn't want to try that route. Maybe being so difficult to remove is just a "bad sign"!
You did make a nice set up to try that method out with too.
If you could secure the gun in the vice and use 2 boards with holes to provide access to the wedge, I really think that a dead blow hammer and a punch would do the trick.
A hard wood punch might even work.
It's not about the strength of the punch, but the transfer of energy to the wedge.
And they also make plastic dead blow hammers instead of the traditional brass or bronze dead blow, and leather could be used to protect the wedge along with using a steel punch if necessary.
I would probably borrow a friend's dead blow hammer because I know someone who has one that's heavyweight bronze.
Cabela's would take it back if the effort failed anyway. But of course no one would blame you if didn't want to try that route. Maybe being so difficult to remove is just a "bad sign"!
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olmontanaboy
New member
Sorry man, If I had not gone through this very thing myself I woulda bet on you and the vise. I would not have beleived I could not remove the wedge from my army with the force I applied with that maul. I'm thinking they must use the wedege to "FORCE" misalinged parts in some revolvers. My thinking is like yours "this aint right" cant be good for the pistol all that hammering. Get a new one
I did use a dead blow hammer and a punch. It bent the punch. The punch I made was pretty beefy. Beside, that 1/4" thick brass wedge killer bent under extreme force. That vice I have is much larger than what your average homeowner owns. I was using two hands to crank on it and I'm a 6'3" gorilla myself.
Exactly...its bad mojo to have a problem like this before the first shot.
I gave it the ol' college try three times and struck out. I would have liked to have loosened her up with some big loads but in the end it didn't make sense to end up owning it just for that experiment. This thing will probably end up in the bargain bin for $150 bucks. Hell, if Cabelas told me to keep it for $150 I would. But why mess with it if I can get one without the problems. Its already been dropped of at UPS. Hope the next one is a keeper!
Hopefully the new owner is a member here. Can't wait to read about the wedge from hell from some other sucker...ahem, I mean soot lord.
Smokin_Gun
New member
Did you try knockin' down or sqeezin' the tip of the wedge spring downward to clear the barrel slot...it may have too steep a ramp on it to clear the barrel slot. Jus' a thought...
Yup, I sure did. I would say I did everything within reason to get that sucker out. My goal was to get the wedge out without marring the wedge or the barrel. I did pretty much remove the bluing on the wedge and replace it with a layer of brass though. I'm sure I could get it out (with a steel punch and a 5 lb sledge) but I really didn't want to end up with a brand new dinged up revolver.
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sundance44s
New member
Why not do it the easy way .. spend 3.99 order one of these , I`ve been useing one for years ...and it still works ...http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(xw...Id=1&subId=19&styleId=1061&partNum=TOOL-KEY-B
getting the wedge out of a Colt can be as hard as you want it to be .
getting the wedge out of a Colt can be as hard as you want it to be .
Clembert, I'm a cap&baller gunsmith. Fix guns for people from all over. Fixed the worst of the worst. Never had wedges stuck like a Pietta unless someone did some really weird thing to get it stuck.
Piettas are very difficult to get the wedges out of when new. I had the same problem with new guns sent to me to accurize and fix the point of aim to the point of impact.
I get all the wedges out. I'm not an engineer even though I studied Civil engineering in college most of three years. Interesting but off track for the post right? Sorry Bud.
Anyway from years of "fixing everything imaginable" I've picked up certain mechanical attributes or added to my mechanical aptitude.
Sometimes the Piettas have the rear of the arbor slot "even" with the rear barrel slots. That lets the wedge get stuck in the arbor slot when it contacts fore and aft in the arbor. (once the wedge is out you have to file the rear arbor slot away some so the wedge can contact only the barrel slots at the rear of the wedge. The wedge can't function when the rear of the arbor slot contacts the wedge)
It does come loose though. Even when the wedge is installed mechanically correct but too tight. I think Pietta may kinda form fit the wedges for the perfect fit. ie Seat the wedge in the corresponding parts by force. Also the hook on the wedge spring (like Smoking Gun mentioned) that had ,pretty much, a 90 degree bend to its end grabs the barrel and gets caught by the spring tip hooking on the barrel. Know what I mean? When the wedge finally comes out that edge on the barrels slot where the wedge hook "was" will be re-shaped with a relief that's angled so the wedge spring can let the wedge out. The spring relieves the barrel there the first time the wedge comes out. That relief will be silver since the bluing is off there now. Can't see it unless you take the wedge out and look under that edge close. Anyway before wacking the wedge you should depress the tip of the wedge spring to " eyeball" whether or not there will be space for the spring to depress enough to enter the barrel slot. There are times,believe it or not that the wedge spring can't depress enough to clear the top of that barrel slot to get out. Don't ask me how they force it in that way.
Anyway....it takes a substantial transfer of energy to knock the wedge loose. With the gun on it's side on a board with more wood to level the barrel the chance of arbor damage(loosen the arbor) is minimized substantially.
Put the gun on wood with some wood under the barrel to make the gun level on it's side. Something softer than wood under the grip. Padded wood would work like to fold a shop rag to pad the wood under the grip. Use something substantial as a punch. Why a punch? If you wack the tip of the spring hard enough it may break the wedge spring. Gotta not hit the spring if it's possible so hitting the wedge with a hammer is bad(hitting the part of the wedge that sticks out of the barrel slot).
If the wedge is flush with the barrel then it doesn't matter whether you hit the spring or not. Only when the spring hooks the outside of the barrel slot does it matter.Something substancial? Steel punch made from a screw driver shank with the wood or plastic handle removed. Use a steel hammer with some weight to hit the punch. It is a good idea to take a larger size screwdriver and grind the tip off some to widen the tip just almost as thick as the wedge under the spring. It doesn't matter if the screw driver is much thicker than the slot. Only the tip of the widened screw driver enters at the first movement of the wedge. You make sure some of the tip of the screw driver punch is thin enough to enter the wedge slot a little,like a quater inch or a little less at the first movement of the wedge. Make sure you try to controp the screw driver punch so you don't drive it too far in the wedge slot and deform the edges of the slot. Side note.....remove the wood or plastic from the screw driver shank so you are hitting steel to steel.
Not too long of a screw driver though since the length of the screw driver shank absorbs energy and can flex under the blows of the hammer. Make the screw driver punch long enough to get your whole hand wrapped around it for a steady support. Wearing a leather glove absorbs some of the sting of holding the steel as it's hit with steel to move steel. The vibration and the energy wasted from the shank flexing goes into your hand so don't leave the shank too much longer than it needs to be to wrap your hand around it. You wrap you hand around the shank of the punch so the punch is supported and gets the energy transfered. The steel punch transfers energy better than brass. Brass for the initial hits to the wedge softens the transfer of energy some and all the energy has to transfer. Steel to steel to the steel wedge for the fist blows usually. It doesn't hurt a thing to try brass first though. The wedge may move with a brass punch.
Use a brass punch with the end filed flat so it can enter the wedge slot (and not hit the spring tip)just a little . Use a brass punch that's at least 3/8ths inch diameter. Even a 1/2 inch diameter punch is good since the tip is filed flat for maybe a 1/4th inch. Don't make the flat part too long for the first blows to the wedge.
If the brass fails and the steel is needed then you watch the wedge and the screw driver shank punch. When the wedge moves a little and the tapered screw driver is just about getting too thick for the slot then go to a punch or a thinner piece of steel(that fits into the slot and is almost as thick as the wedge and almost as wide since the bigger the punch the more energy transferred). Take the sharp edges off the edges of that piece of steel being used for a punch now (and file a notch so it doesn't hit the spring tip)that enters the wedge slot. Round off the edges just a tad so they won't catch the edge of the arbor slot or the edge of the barrel slot as the piece of steel enters and goes thru the wedge slot.
In the beginning lay the big screw driver punch "square" on the edge of the wedge. You probably should file a notch so it doesn't hit the spring tip but you can have the end of the driver tip small enough to go under the spring tip.
Make sure it's(screw driver shank punch) positioned so it isn't on the barrel anywhere. With the heavy hammer wack the punch and transfer the energy to the wedge. The punch needs to be wide in diameter (3/8ths) and the hammer a ball peen with some weight. A carpenters hammer will work too.
Once the wedge moves a little you can try brass or nylon drift punches. It may still need the steel piece you made that can enter the wedge slot though. May need that to go all the way thru to the other side.
Make sure that piece of steel is not as wide as the wedge nor as thick or you may get the wedge out and find the slab steel punch is now stuck in there.
Laying the punches square on the wedge tip minimizes any deformation of the wedge tip. If there is a little deformation don't fret. Wedges are made for hitting them. They get dinged up some. A new wedge costs a good bit anymore(too much in my book) but it's not too costly to get a new one if you need a pristine gun.
Anyway "Clembert" your punch used was too small to transfer enough energy. You need stiff punches for the first blows for the first small movement of the wedge.
There are times that the wedge can shoot out with some force when it breaks loose and if there's room for it to do so it will fly a ways.
When the gun is layed out like I suggested once the wedge moves a little and you may move the wedge easier then take out the wood that was under the wedge with a little space between. It was just there to make sure the wedge didn't move far enough for the screwdriver punch to enter the slot and ,since the screw driver is thicker than the wedge slot, deform the barrels slot some. Once the wedge moves enough make sure there's room for it too get all the way out.
You know, pick it up and rest it on your legs sitting in the chair once the wedge gets easier to move. Once the wedge moves some it gets easier to wack all the way out.
Keep the large screw driver punch and the piece of steel that can go thru the wedge slot to get the wedge all the way out with your shooting stuff you take with you to go shoot. You may want to take the barrel off your gun for some reason while at the range. Once the wedge has been in and out of the slot enough it pops right out with a lesser blow than the first time.
I went thru the trouble to type this as a helper for anyone removing a new Pietta wedge that's stuck. Most of the new Piettas come with stuck wedges so chances are that if you return the gun because of a stuck wedge the exchange gun will have a stuck wedge also.
Work carefully when removing a stuck wedge. You don't want to marr or scratch your barrel and if you do it properly you won't.
Piettas are very difficult to get the wedges out of when new. I had the same problem with new guns sent to me to accurize and fix the point of aim to the point of impact.
I get all the wedges out. I'm not an engineer even though I studied Civil engineering in college most of three years. Interesting but off track for the post right? Sorry Bud.
Anyway from years of "fixing everything imaginable" I've picked up certain mechanical attributes or added to my mechanical aptitude.
Sometimes the Piettas have the rear of the arbor slot "even" with the rear barrel slots. That lets the wedge get stuck in the arbor slot when it contacts fore and aft in the arbor. (once the wedge is out you have to file the rear arbor slot away some so the wedge can contact only the barrel slots at the rear of the wedge. The wedge can't function when the rear of the arbor slot contacts the wedge)
It does come loose though. Even when the wedge is installed mechanically correct but too tight. I think Pietta may kinda form fit the wedges for the perfect fit. ie Seat the wedge in the corresponding parts by force. Also the hook on the wedge spring (like Smoking Gun mentioned) that had ,pretty much, a 90 degree bend to its end grabs the barrel and gets caught by the spring tip hooking on the barrel. Know what I mean? When the wedge finally comes out that edge on the barrels slot where the wedge hook "was" will be re-shaped with a relief that's angled so the wedge spring can let the wedge out. The spring relieves the barrel there the first time the wedge comes out. That relief will be silver since the bluing is off there now. Can't see it unless you take the wedge out and look under that edge close. Anyway before wacking the wedge you should depress the tip of the wedge spring to " eyeball" whether or not there will be space for the spring to depress enough to enter the barrel slot. There are times,believe it or not that the wedge spring can't depress enough to clear the top of that barrel slot to get out. Don't ask me how they force it in that way.
Anyway....it takes a substantial transfer of energy to knock the wedge loose. With the gun on it's side on a board with more wood to level the barrel the chance of arbor damage(loosen the arbor) is minimized substantially.
Put the gun on wood with some wood under the barrel to make the gun level on it's side. Something softer than wood under the grip. Padded wood would work like to fold a shop rag to pad the wood under the grip. Use something substantial as a punch. Why a punch? If you wack the tip of the spring hard enough it may break the wedge spring. Gotta not hit the spring if it's possible so hitting the wedge with a hammer is bad(hitting the part of the wedge that sticks out of the barrel slot).
If the wedge is flush with the barrel then it doesn't matter whether you hit the spring or not. Only when the spring hooks the outside of the barrel slot does it matter.Something substancial? Steel punch made from a screw driver shank with the wood or plastic handle removed. Use a steel hammer with some weight to hit the punch. It is a good idea to take a larger size screwdriver and grind the tip off some to widen the tip just almost as thick as the wedge under the spring. It doesn't matter if the screw driver is much thicker than the slot. Only the tip of the widened screw driver enters at the first movement of the wedge. You make sure some of the tip of the screw driver punch is thin enough to enter the wedge slot a little,like a quater inch or a little less at the first movement of the wedge. Make sure you try to controp the screw driver punch so you don't drive it too far in the wedge slot and deform the edges of the slot. Side note.....remove the wood or plastic from the screw driver shank so you are hitting steel to steel.
Not too long of a screw driver though since the length of the screw driver shank absorbs energy and can flex under the blows of the hammer. Make the screw driver punch long enough to get your whole hand wrapped around it for a steady support. Wearing a leather glove absorbs some of the sting of holding the steel as it's hit with steel to move steel. The vibration and the energy wasted from the shank flexing goes into your hand so don't leave the shank too much longer than it needs to be to wrap your hand around it. You wrap you hand around the shank of the punch so the punch is supported and gets the energy transfered. The steel punch transfers energy better than brass. Brass for the initial hits to the wedge softens the transfer of energy some and all the energy has to transfer. Steel to steel to the steel wedge for the fist blows usually. It doesn't hurt a thing to try brass first though. The wedge may move with a brass punch.
Use a brass punch with the end filed flat so it can enter the wedge slot (and not hit the spring tip)just a little . Use a brass punch that's at least 3/8ths inch diameter. Even a 1/2 inch diameter punch is good since the tip is filed flat for maybe a 1/4th inch. Don't make the flat part too long for the first blows to the wedge.
If the brass fails and the steel is needed then you watch the wedge and the screw driver shank punch. When the wedge moves a little and the tapered screw driver is just about getting too thick for the slot then go to a punch or a thinner piece of steel(that fits into the slot and is almost as thick as the wedge and almost as wide since the bigger the punch the more energy transferred). Take the sharp edges off the edges of that piece of steel being used for a punch now (and file a notch so it doesn't hit the spring tip)that enters the wedge slot. Round off the edges just a tad so they won't catch the edge of the arbor slot or the edge of the barrel slot as the piece of steel enters and goes thru the wedge slot.
In the beginning lay the big screw driver punch "square" on the edge of the wedge. You probably should file a notch so it doesn't hit the spring tip but you can have the end of the driver tip small enough to go under the spring tip.
Make sure it's(screw driver shank punch) positioned so it isn't on the barrel anywhere. With the heavy hammer wack the punch and transfer the energy to the wedge. The punch needs to be wide in diameter (3/8ths) and the hammer a ball peen with some weight. A carpenters hammer will work too.
Once the wedge moves a little you can try brass or nylon drift punches. It may still need the steel piece you made that can enter the wedge slot though. May need that to go all the way thru to the other side.
Make sure that piece of steel is not as wide as the wedge nor as thick or you may get the wedge out and find the slab steel punch is now stuck in there.
Laying the punches square on the wedge tip minimizes any deformation of the wedge tip. If there is a little deformation don't fret. Wedges are made for hitting them. They get dinged up some. A new wedge costs a good bit anymore(too much in my book) but it's not too costly to get a new one if you need a pristine gun.
Anyway "Clembert" your punch used was too small to transfer enough energy. You need stiff punches for the first blows for the first small movement of the wedge.
There are times that the wedge can shoot out with some force when it breaks loose and if there's room for it to do so it will fly a ways.
When the gun is layed out like I suggested once the wedge moves a little and you may move the wedge easier then take out the wood that was under the wedge with a little space between. It was just there to make sure the wedge didn't move far enough for the screwdriver punch to enter the slot and ,since the screw driver is thicker than the wedge slot, deform the barrels slot some. Once the wedge moves enough make sure there's room for it too get all the way out.
You know, pick it up and rest it on your legs sitting in the chair once the wedge gets easier to move. Once the wedge moves some it gets easier to wack all the way out.
Keep the large screw driver punch and the piece of steel that can go thru the wedge slot to get the wedge all the way out with your shooting stuff you take with you to go shoot. You may want to take the barrel off your gun for some reason while at the range. Once the wedge has been in and out of the slot enough it pops right out with a lesser blow than the first time.
I went thru the trouble to type this as a helper for anyone removing a new Pietta wedge that's stuck. Most of the new Piettas come with stuck wedges so chances are that if you return the gun because of a stuck wedge the exchange gun will have a stuck wedge also.
Work carefully when removing a stuck wedge. You don't want to marr or scratch your barrel and if you do it properly you won't.
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sundance44s
New member
I`ll have to differ on enyaw`s advice on useing a steel punch ......if you hit it hard enough to move the wedge the steel punch will slip off the wedge and put a nasty looking scratch on the barrel ...I have never had one come out easy .......it will take a good wack with a fairly heavy hammer (I use a 21 oz frameing hammer ) and the brass punch shown in my last post ....................the brass punch will not leave any uglys on the barrel when it slips yet it is heavy enough to do the job with a good hammer .
Save the steel punch for something besides gun smithing .
Save the steel punch for something besides gun smithing .