"Don't let the SAS guys teach you how to shoot" cuts both ways, as you note. Advocating no tactics is, in itself, advocating a tactic. Don't seek cover. Don't get out of the line of fire. Draw and shoot fast. It's a great skill, but it's not much of a tactic. A lot of people who train, and put their training to use, say, "train as you fight, because you will fight as you train", and if that's the case, I don't think I'd practice standing in the open and shooting. I don't mean to be totally dismissive, as most all of my own gunhandling skill has come from weekly IPSC matches over the last ten years, but gunhandling is only a small part of self-defense, and I hope, "when the balloon goes up", that I don't just stand there and shoot.
Picked up bad habits in IDPA/USPSA?
- Thread starter FM12
- Start date
Whether you practice it or not, that is how most civilian encounters go down. It also makes sense to make that the focus of your training. Most people have limited time and budget. How do you think those are better spent - going to a tacticool school, learning how to clear your house or storm a fortified structure - or going to a school which may not have a shoot house but can teach you how to hit the target quickly? Read for yourself, the information is there.
Also, you'll note that I didn't say "never seek cover". What I said was if the situation allows, seek cover before the shooting starts and seeking cover when you should be shooting will get you killed. I stand by those statements. Tactics are what military and SWAT teams use, strategy is far more important to a civilian. Strategy and the ability to hit your target quickly.
TexasSeaRay
New member
And right there is where
And right there is where I quit reading.
Things are a little different when you're getting shot at. Things are real different when you're getting shot at and bleeding as a result.
An old pal of mine from our former unit always said that it was like having someone who was an expert with Microsoft Flight Simulator swearing that flying a real airplane was no different--instruments are instruments, stalls are stalls, and crashes are crashes.
Real life & death situations don't come with reset buttons or do-over options.
Microsoft Flight Simulator is a game. Pure and simple. IPSC is a game. Pure and simple. Both have a number of useful functions and advantages to them. But if you believe that both of them are "how it really is," then you're going to end up in a real world of hurt.
Jeff
And right there is where I quit reading.
Things are a little different when you're getting shot at. Things are real different when you're getting shot at and bleeding as a result.
An old pal of mine from our former unit always said that it was like having someone who was an expert with Microsoft Flight Simulator swearing that flying a real airplane was no different--instruments are instruments, stalls are stalls, and crashes are crashes.
Real life & death situations don't come with reset buttons or do-over options.
Microsoft Flight Simulator is a game. Pure and simple. IPSC is a game. Pure and simple. Both have a number of useful functions and advantages to them. But if you believe that both of them are "how it really is," then you're going to end up in a real world of hurt.
Jeff
I have an opinion
Any 'habit' except safety-related is bad, unless we're talking specific shooting skills.
As someone here already mentioned, armed encounters are dynamic, with no rule or logic for guidance.
Suggest shooting sports great for gun-handling, but less than ideal for tactics or habits.
My habit is to run screaming like a girl the other way.....
Any 'habit' except safety-related is bad, unless we're talking specific shooting skills.
As someone here already mentioned, armed encounters are dynamic, with no rule or logic for guidance.
Suggest shooting sports great for gun-handling, but less than ideal for tactics or habits.
My habit is to run screaming like a girl the other way.....
softmentor
New member
Interesting topic. I have thought about it before but never really talked it through with anyone. I have been shooting handguns for about 1 1/2 years and started IPSA a year ago. Started shooting so I could work armed (private security) And at the start, let me say I appreciate those of you who are polite and don't take things personal and don't argue, but discuss, listen, learn and share their questions, ideas and experience in a professional and gentlemanly fashion.
From what I have learned of self defense, there are 2 basic situations where I would have to consider using my gun. 1. those where the situation happens fast, most likely with someone drawing a weapon and attacking. 2. something like a home invasion. IPSA is not exactly like either of these, as far as I can see. In the first, IPSA requires that you stand in a box, not move, and from what I have learned moving, and especially moving toward good cover, is an important part of staying alive. In the second, IPSA has no tactical sense of home invasion or room clearing and what to do. And of course, in both cases, IPSA targets don't move or shoot back as already stated.
So, I think this is a great question. Perhaps restated, IPSA habits may not be bad habits, they just lack some of the skills needed for real self defense. Clearly only learning, training and practicing IPSA would leave a person poorly equipped to handle a real SD situation. Yes, I have become much more competent with the basic mechanics of carrying, handling, and firing my gun at IPSA. I shoot IPSA with my duty gear just for that reason. But I still continue to learn about tactics and self defense through other training. So, I will continue to read this thread with interest. Thanks again to those of you who share from real experience and the gathered wisdom and are kind enough to share that with those of us who want to learn.
From what I have learned of self defense, there are 2 basic situations where I would have to consider using my gun. 1. those where the situation happens fast, most likely with someone drawing a weapon and attacking. 2. something like a home invasion. IPSA is not exactly like either of these, as far as I can see. In the first, IPSA requires that you stand in a box, not move, and from what I have learned moving, and especially moving toward good cover, is an important part of staying alive. In the second, IPSA has no tactical sense of home invasion or room clearing and what to do. And of course, in both cases, IPSA targets don't move or shoot back as already stated.
So, I think this is a great question. Perhaps restated, IPSA habits may not be bad habits, they just lack some of the skills needed for real self defense. Clearly only learning, training and practicing IPSA would leave a person poorly equipped to handle a real SD situation. Yes, I have become much more competent with the basic mechanics of carrying, handling, and firing my gun at IPSA. I shoot IPSA with my duty gear just for that reason. But I still continue to learn about tactics and self defense through other training. So, I will continue to read this thread with interest. Thanks again to those of you who share from real experience and the gathered wisdom and are kind enough to share that with those of us who want to learn.
Sigma 40 Blaster
New member
I remember a while back I posted a question about the rivalary between IPSC and IDPA clubs...each thinks they are superior to the other (IPSC is more fun, IDPA is more "tactical").
I think this thread is pretty indicative that there is a real difference between the two organizations and that each has their own purpose for existence. Both are fun.
I think I'll side with the LE and military (former or current duty) opinions as to what purpose each club serves.
I think this thread is pretty indicative that there is a real difference between the two organizations and that each has their own purpose for existence. Both are fun.
I think I'll side with the LE and military (former or current duty) opinions as to what purpose each club serves.
If you think shooting in general or practicing draws, sight acquisition, trigger control, target to target transition, reloads, shooting on the move and safe gun handling are bad habits, you shouldn’t shoot either game. Will you learn sound tactics? No, games that involve a timer rarely provide that.
rules
I suggest the rules in IDPA trend towards enforcing 'good' habits, like finding cover, maintaining ammunition control, and target engagement awareness.
Not 'bad'.
Not for every circumstance, either, but the still-sad truth is most of us do exactly as we've trained or practiced, so......
Don't believe it of yourselves? Suggest trying a 'match' using your opposite hand.
(I did / have, and I acted retarded. Juuuust barely better than 'dangerous', but no one witnessing argued about 'retarded').
FWIW, I no longer shoot IDPA; was learnin' too many bad habits LOL.
A33102
I suggest the rules in IDPA trend towards enforcing 'good' habits, like finding cover, maintaining ammunition control, and target engagement awareness.
Not 'bad'.
Not for every circumstance, either, but the still-sad truth is most of us do exactly as we've trained or practiced, so......
Don't believe it of yourselves? Suggest trying a 'match' using your opposite hand.
(I did / have, and I acted retarded. Juuuust barely better than 'dangerous', but no one witnessing argued about 'retarded').
FWIW, I no longer shoot IDPA; was learnin' too many bad habits LOL.
A33102
All martial arts training is a game. When the military trains in the field it's called war games.
No one is actually in mortal danger, at least from enemy action.
I'll admit that over the years IPSC got farther and farther from practical, hence the return to single stack street type matches.
In 'real' life if someone good wants to kill you there is not much you can do about it, outside of having 24 hr armed protection.
For an individual who may confront a deadly situation such as an armed robber or lunatic, ect, the most important skill to have(after being able to avoid trouble in the first place) is to rapidly put their self defense method into action.
If that method is a pistol you must be able to draw and shoot your attacker before he shoots, stabs or hits you.
Skills in seeking concealment or engaging in running gun battles with multipile armed assailants will hopefully be of a secondary nature. When compared with rapidly deploying and firing your weapon.
No one is actually in mortal danger, at least from enemy action.
I'll admit that over the years IPSC got farther and farther from practical, hence the return to single stack street type matches.
In 'real' life if someone good wants to kill you there is not much you can do about it, outside of having 24 hr armed protection.
For an individual who may confront a deadly situation such as an armed robber or lunatic, ect, the most important skill to have(after being able to avoid trouble in the first place) is to rapidly put their self defense method into action.
If that method is a pistol you must be able to draw and shoot your attacker before he shoots, stabs or hits you.
Skills in seeking concealment or engaging in running gun battles with multipile armed assailants will hopefully be of a secondary nature. When compared with rapidly deploying and firing your weapon.
True in the sense of 30+ round assault courses. But too many people want to focus on the equipment. The skills learned apply to any pistol with any equipment. Rob has proven that again and again. He is tough to beat whether in single stack or open division. I have done demos with a .454 Ruger Alaskan shooting 2 "A's" with .2 splits at 7 yards. It aint the equipment. I always have to shake my head when some people want to claim that the skills learned don't translate to the "real" world. More SF, NavSpecWar, SOCMEU and L.E. guys have been trained by 5 of the top shooters I can think of. If the skills don't translate, why do these organizations still seek them out for training?
That's it precisely, yet so many people want to tell us otherwise. The single most important skill to develop with a firearm is the ability to hit your target quickly (and often). Everything else takes a back seat.
Those are bad habits. Do the research yourself. In the vast majority of civilian encounters, cover makes no difference (it is either not available or the situation unfolds so fast that it isn't accessible). Neither does ammunition control (again most don't involve enough rounds to require a reload) and a reload with retention is uneccessary (as I pointed out earlier, I don't think you will find a civilian shooting where it played a role in the outcome), overly complex (in that it is very difficut to fire the round in the chamber while performing one), trains you to think about what to do with the partial magazine when you should be focusing on shooting (think about "Newhall"). Assessing the threat should happen before the shooting starts if there is time - not during - and in the situations that unfold too quickly, just shoot. The best, most effective thing to do when it's time to shoot is shoot. Nothing else.
Those are the skills that IPSC (and to a lesser degree IDPA) develops. The skills it doesn't develop are pre and post engagement skills. But, that is a totally different arena and one that can be trained for off of the range.
I just started sooting IDPA 4 months ago. Took my permit to carry and receaved my permit 6 months ago. Been shooting off the bench for over 25 years. Bad habit in IDPA is, if it does not have a set of hands or lines on it, it gets shot. When the S.H.T.F. what ever training you have done is most likely what you will revert to. That could set you up for a murder charge.
That's long been a shortcoming of using competition as training, or sometimes, using training as training; every time you draw your gun, something gets shot. Now, we are taught that it's not nice to brandish, and we don't go for our gun until it's actually time to shoot, but really, I think I'd rather have my gun out when things go sideways, and THEN make the decision to shoot, or not. IDPA used to feature more designating of threat targets, such as knives or guns stenciled on, to signify levels of threat. It got sort of silly, with MDs declaring that a knife at ten yards is more dangerous than a gun at twelve yards, or a tomahawk is a greater threat than a hatchet, etc., so IDPA suggests that no such subjective asignments be made, but what I discovered about stenciling threat indicators on targets is that it made me skip targets that had any black paint indicators on them. I'd become so conditioned to bypass targets with black markings, that I'd skip past threat targets, too. A guy in a tan jacket and black gloves; threat, or not?
Lurper, have we met?
"Good habits" for the LE types that seem to inhabit the IDPA circles I'm aware of...........
I have found, as a civilian, a loud voice, a fast draw, and a big shiny gun alleviated any need for banging away.
I don't feel the need for many 'tactics'.
So far; I remain optimistic (up here in sunny Vermont that's not so hard to do....)
A33102
"Good habits" for the LE types that seem to inhabit the IDPA circles I'm aware of...........
I have found, as a civilian, a loud voice, a fast draw, and a big shiny gun alleviated any need for banging away.
I don't feel the need for many 'tactics'.
So far; I remain optimistic (up here in sunny Vermont that's not so hard to do....)
A33102
Sorcerer and RickB have hit the nail right on thee head...when was the last time you ran a course at one of these games and DIDNT shoot?
Maybe its not the games fault, maybe need a different application, usually known in LE circles as "shoot-don't shoot" drills...
I guess if you join a league or group of shooters, expect to shoot!
OK, I'm off to find a different game or another approach.
Thanks to all who have contributed here. It's been very informational and enlightening. FM12
Maybe its not the games fault, maybe need a different application, usually known in LE circles as "shoot-don't shoot" drills...
I guess if you join a league or group of shooters, expect to shoot!
OK, I'm off to find a different game or another approach.
Thanks to all who have contributed here. It's been very informational and enlightening. FM12
