Physics of shooting a rifle

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It does not guarantee they don't affect the overall outcome.

As a general rule in Aerodynamics Stability and Control....
It means it does not affect the overall outcome. Sierra Engineers are speaking in terms of ballistics which is the flight characteristics of a projectile. In other words, Aerodynamics.....

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Correct. The normal way to take them into account is to take the weight of the powder charge and multipy it by 5000fps (the nominal velocity of the escaping gases) and then to include that with the bullet momentum when calculating recoil.

Calculating recoil forces felt at the shoulder has nothing to do with the behavior of a bullet upon exiting the muzzle.
 

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5000fps (the nominal velocity of the escaping gases)

Internal Ballistics and External Ballistics are very different animals for the simple fact of how the escaping gasses act once they exit the muzzle.

There is no a 5000fps movement of gas once it escapes the muzzle. Normal shock formation prevents that.

Instead, the motion becomes a vibrational wave which is the basis of normal shock. That vibration is speed limited by the speed of sound.

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More simply, the speed of sound is how fast vibrations travel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound

Do not confuse the RELATIVE velocity of an object traveling thru the air with the velocity of the air.

This is also why Jet engines use Mass Flow instead of Exhaust Velocity to measure power.

NASA puts it very succinctly.

There is no upstream influence in a supersonic flow;

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/machang.html

In other words, nothing crosses the normal shock going upstream.
 

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You posted this:
davidsog said:
I have no doubt those gases contribute to recoil.
I responded with this:
JohnKSa said:
Correct. The normal way to take them into account is to take the weight of the powder charge and multipy it by 5000fps (the nominal velocity of the escaping gases) and then to include that with the bullet momentum when calculating recoil.
Then you respond to my comment with this:
davidsog said:
Calculating recoil forces felt at the shoulder has nothing to do with the behavior of a bullet upon exiting the muzzle.
You make a comment about recoil, I respond about recoil, (making it clear what I'm responding to by quoting). Then you 1.) Act as if I'm not agreeing with you when I am and 2.) Act as if I shouldn't have been talking about recoil when I responded to a comment by you about recoil.

Are you playing some sort of game? If you are, maybe you should tell everyone what the rules are.
As a general rule in Aerodynamics Stability and Control....
It means it does not affect the overall outcome.
No, that's not what it means. When the transient motion dies out, there is no guarantee that there was no overall displacement or orientation change as a result. A perturbation that results in a decaying transient can also result in displacement/orientation change. This is, in fact, why the muzzle crown is so important. If the force of the gases on the bullet as they escape is not reasonably symmetrical, the result can be that the bullet is displaced/reoriented after the initial small, transient, cyclical motion dies out.
Internal Ballistics and External Ballistics are very different animals for the simple fact of how the escaping gasses act once they exit the muzzle.

There is no a 5000fps movement of gas once it escapes the muzzle. Normal shock formation prevents that.
I told you how the gases are normally accounted for in recoil calculation. What I told you was accurate and you can verify that fact if you wish. Hatcher measured the velocity of the gases escaping from behind a 30.06 bullet at about 4700 fps. Some sources say around 4000fps, some try to account for it as a multiplier (larger than one) to the speed of the bullet. We know that it's possible to get bullets moving well over 4000fps with gunpowder, so it's hard to rationalize the idea that the gases can't move at least that fast.
Quote:
More simply, the speed of sound is how fast vibrations travel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound

Do not confuse the RELATIVE velocity of an object traveling thru the air with the velocity of the air.

This is also why Jet engines use Mass Flow instead of Exhaust Velocity to measure power.

NASA puts it very succinctly.

Quote:
There is no upstream influence in a supersonic flow;
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/machang.html

In other words, nothing crosses the normal shock going upstream.
This is all correct, but it doesn't call into question the comment I made. I think you're trying to say that you think that the exhaust gases leaving the muzzle can't travel faster than the speed of sound or faster than the bullet. If so, you are wrong--and for whatever it's worth, none of your sources support such an assertion.
 
You make a comment about recoil, I respond about recoil,

No game. You just were not clear at all.

As long as your not trying to use the recoil formula to try and prove it has anything to dow with behavior of the bullet at muzzle exit.

I think you're trying to say that you think that the exhaust gases leaving the muzzle can't travel faster than the speed of sound or faster than the bullet. If so, you are wrong--and for whatever it's worth, none of your sources support such an assertion.

No, that is not wrong in the fact that once that gas exits the energy transfers to a vibrational wave. The local speed of sound is the speed limit. It is not an absolute limit but it also does not work like you think in that muzzle gasses will be blowing bullets all over the place. They must cross a normal shock to do that and that would mean an upstream influence.

What your doing appears to be taking long standing aerodynamic principles and examining exceptions to make conclusions that are not supported.

It is exactly like claiming Sperm Whales are white. White Sperm Whales are extremely rare but they do occur. Making the claim White is the natural color of a Sperm Whale is not factual. Neither is claiming that exhaust gases at muzzle exit have any significant impact on bullet position in a properly functioning rifle. I don' understand why you seem to take issue with that as it is exactly what Sierra Engineers relate.

Notice the term Possible is used. In other words, there is debate as to what is exactly causing all of the angular motions on a bullet the moment it exits the muzzle. I would not make a statement that they never interfere except as a generalization of general behavior. Like most things, if you get into the weeds, there are exceptions.

Knowing what I know of Aerodynamics as a someone formally educated in Aeronautical Sciences my first instinct is that the gases escaping from the barrel do not influence the flight significantly in MOST cases provided everything is in proper working order for the rifle and ammunition.

That is not because it does not impart some degree of movement. I just know it takes a lot of energy to cross that shock wave. The other thing leading me to that conclusion is the measured data leading to a conclusion from the Sierra Engineers that these movements are:

"These angular motions are small, cyclical, and transient."

All figures are from Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators a US Government Publication and freely released thru the FAA. It is useful to the discussion because it clearly explains foundational principles in an easy to understand format.

Exhaust gases exiting the muzzle cannot travel faster than the speed of sound and they almost instantaneously adhere to that once they exit a confined space. The exhaust gases have lots of momentum so they continue to influence beyond the muzzle exit of course, they just don't do so any faster than the speed of sound. That is why you feel the normal shock from the muzzle blast of the guy shooting next to you on the range. That normal shock does not reach you any faster than the speed of sound.

The energy in the vicinity and excess of the local velocity of sound changes the nature of the behavior of air such that it takes on the properties of compression. Teaching compressible aerodynamics is going to be difficult over a forum post.

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Just know it takes energy to fundamentally change the basic nature of the physical properties of the atmosphere. The presence of a normal shock is physical evidence of that change occuring.

Notice the velocity of the air before and after the normal shock:

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Now, do not get confused as many diagrams show the RELATIVE velocity between the object and the air. The object is traveling very fast thru an ocean of air that is not moving.

That is nicely illustrated in this gif from my previous post and already cited. Think of the velocity of the air as the distance between the lines. At the Shock, the velocity increase to the local speed of sound as it is pushed out of the way by the object. That changes the nature of the properties of the air and forms our shock wave. After that shock, the air is very low energy and subsonic. This effect took the lives of several test pilots when it was first encounters as once that normal shock moves to just in front of the control surfaces, that low energy air was not enough to control the aircraft.


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https://archive.org/details/Aerodynamics_for_Naval_Aviators/page/n221/mode/2up
 

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I don' understand why you seem to take issue with that as it is exactly what Sierra Engineers relate.
No, that is not what they relate. That statement doesn't mean what you think it means, I've already tried to explain it to you.
Exhaust gases exiting the muzzle cannot travel faster than the speed of sound and they almost instantaneously adhere to that once they exit a confined space.
You actually believe that the gases can accelerate a bullet to faster than the speed of sound in spite of the fact that there's air in the bore and bore-to-bullet friction both resisting bullet motion in the bore, but then once the gases are out of the bore, the air instantly decelerates those gases to the speed of sound. Ignoring the fact that instant deceleration isn't possible, think about what you are saying. You are saying that bullets can't travel above the speed of sound.
Just know it takes energy to fundamentally change the basic nature of the physical properties of the atmosphere.
Yeah. The gases have enough energy to erode steel and push a small bit of metal to supersonic velocities in spite of friction with the bore and the resistance of the air in the bore.

You quote a lot of good material, but you don't understand what it means. Here's something definitive.
https://www.mdpi.com/2226-4310/11/5/381#:~:text=Because the velocity of the,was formed at its bottom.

"Because the velocity of the gas ejected from the muzzle exceeded that of the moving body, a clear shock wave was formed at its bottom."
We also observed that a clear shock wave appeared at the bottom of the moving body because the high-temperature and high-pressure gas jet expanded at a much higher rate than the velocity of the moving body.
The high-temperature and high-pressure gas was sprayed behind the moving body, rapidly expanded at a speed above 1900 m/s...
(1900m/s is about 5x the speed of sound.)

If the gases can't move faster than the speed of sound, then neither can the bullet. It is true that they will rapidly lose that velocity, but they certainly exit the muzzle going faster than the bullet--once the bullet allows them to escape.
 
You are saying that bullets can't travel above the speed of sound

Is that what you think I said. Wow, this is going to be a much tougher conversation that I imagined.

Don't confuse internal and external ballistics exactly like you are doing.
 
No, that's not what it means. When the transient motion dies out, there is no guarantee that there was no overall displacement or orientation change as a result.

Not unless we violate the conservation of energy John.
 
Not unless we violate the conservation of energy John.
It's got nothing to do with the conservation of energy. You just don't understand what the quote you used means even after I've tried to explain it to you.
Is that what you think I said.
It is a direct consequence of what you are claiming, and it is telling that you can't see that.

If the gases can't move faster than the speed of sound when they are only pushing air out of the way, then they certainly can't move faster than the speed of sound when they are pushing a bullet AND air out of the way AND dealing with bore-to-bullet friction.

If that reasoning is too difficult to follow, then the source I provided very clearly states that the gases move faster than the speed of sound as they exit the bore. Which confirms what we already knew was true since Hatcher measured the gases exiting the bore behind a 30-06 bullet at 4700fps--over 4x faster than the speed of sound.

It is worth noting that the sources you are quoting do not contradict any of this, it's just that you very obviously don't understand what they are saying. You've done this before on this thread. You quote sources that you claim support your point but don't and are often only very broadly relevant. In some cases your sources have content that directly contradicts your assertions--but you post them anyway, which suggests that you don't understand the material at all since no one would repeatedly choose to post evidence that destroys their claims if they understood what they were posting. This should give you pause when it is pointed out, but somehow it doesn't seem to have any effect at all.

There isn't really any room for debate at this point. The gases are moving well above the speed of sound as they exit the muzzle behind the bullet. If you want to address the contents of the source I provided or show that Hatcher's measurements were flawed, feel free--that should be entertaining. If you can't do that then it's pointless for you to keep claiming that you're right--it only further emphasizes your lack of understanding of the topic in specific and of logical debate in general.
 
You just don't understand what the quote you used means even after I've tried to explain it to you.

No John..

My degree is in this and I graduated Magna Cum Laude from Embry Riddle. Once more, my second career involves this every damn day. Today, I feed my family using that education.

It's not my fault you do not understand it and refuse to listen. I don't pretend to be the end all on aerodynamics but I definately do know quite a bit about it. In this case, our small, cyclical, and transient oscillation has EVERYTHING to do with conservation of energy. You have an issue with your ability to change your thought process over differing frames of reference. Don't feel bad, you are not the only one and it is more common than you would think. One reason why not everyone becomes an Aeronautical Engineer.

If any gases at muzzle exit influence the flight of the bullet those gases would only be able input a finite amount of energy.

That energy would be dissipated thru:

These angular motions are small, cyclical, and transient

Small = of minor importance, moment, weight, or consequence:

Cyclical = process is one in which a series of events happens again and again in the same order.

transient = Decaying with time, especially as a simple exponential function of time.

When a bullet exits the muzzle of a gun, it immediately begins some angular pitching and yawing motions which have several possible causes including the crosswind. These angular motions are small, cyclical, and transient. They typically start out with amplitudes of a degree or so, and damp out, or at least damp to some very small residual values, after the bullet travels a relatively short distance. From our experience measuring ballistic coefficients, these motions damp within 100 yards or less of bullet travel downrange. Throughout the trajectory, including the initial transient period, the bullet has an “average” angular orientation which aligns the longitudinal axis almost exactly with Vbullet relative to the air. In this orientation the principal aerodynamic force on the bullet is drag, which acts in a direction opposite to Vbullet relative to the air. The side forces on the bullet are essentially nulled in this “average” angular orientation.


https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6962038&postcount=218
 
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Upon bullet exiting the muzzle, hot gas behind the bullet will momentarily accelerate to speed much higher than the bullet's muzzle velocity(MV), but very quickly the gas' speed dissipates. There is a brief moment during which the bullet experiences tail wind. It is the transitional ballistic period. Certainly the gas can have supersonic speed, easily up to 5k fps, although very briefly.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_ballistics

The bullet is essentially unstable during transitional ballistic period. Pitch / yaw, caused by cross wind or other factors, diverges, until the bullet experiences head wind.

I ordered an oversized flash can. The idea is to shield the bullet from cross wind when it is going through transitional ballistic period. Funny thing is optics planet cancelled the order, citing government restriction policy. They couldn't explain what the restriction was. I guess they didn't want to get in trouble with the tyrants in California. The flash can resembles a suppressor, I suppose, even though it is anything but. Will have to try somewhere else.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
It's not my fault you do not understand it and refuse to listen.
I'm definitely listening--which is probably a mistake. And I'm not quoting sources that contradict me nor am I ignoring the sources provided by others which suggests that maybe I'm not the one who's not understanding.
...small, cyclical, and transient oscillation has EVERYTHING to do with conservation of energy.
Nonsense.

When a damped system is perturbed, it will experience cyclic and transient oscillation. Depending on the perturbation, the object may also be displaced or reoriented when the oscillation damps out. By the way, the graph you posted earlier (Post #401) actually shows a displacement after the oscillation damps out. Go back and look at it carefully and you will see what I'm saying. Where was the bullet at the start of the graph on the displacement axis? Where did it end up on the displacement axis after the oscillations stopped? This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. You post correct information, but then you don't seem to actually comprehend its content.

And none of that has anything to do with conservation of energy. Nothing in what I said could reasonably be interpreted to indicate that the oscillations go on forever, only that when they do die out, if the perturbation force was applied significantly asymmetrically, the bullet may be displaced from or misaligned with the original trajectory.
If any gases at muzzle exit influence the flight of the bullet those gases would only be able input a finite amount of energy.
Of course. Nothing in my statements could reasonably be interpreted to imply that infinite energy is required. For one thing, there's a lot of energy available. Anyone who has fired a gun knows how much energy is released after the bullet exits the muzzle. More specifically, that energy results in a perturbation of the bullet as it exits the muzzle, and, if the energy results in a force applied asymmetrically to the bullet (as occurs with a damaged crown), it also results in the ultimate displacement/reorientation of the bullet. The spin will stabilize it after small, cyclical and transient oscillations die out, either way, but if the initial perturbing force was asymmetrical enough, the bullet won't be aligned exactly the way it was. That's why the crown of the muzzle is so important to accuracy.
Small = of minor importance, moment, weight, or consequence:

Cyclical = process is one in which a series of events happens again and again in the same order.

transient = Decaying with time, especially as a simple exponential function of time.
You keep repeating this as if it's some kind of mantra. I understand all of those things perfectly. What you keep missing is that there is nothing in any of that that says the initial perturbation can't ultimately leave the bullet misaligned/displaced after all of the small, cyclical, transient motion stops.

Ok, Let's try this a different way. Explain the mechanism by which a damaged crown negatively affects accuracy.
...My degree is in this and I graduated Magna Cum Laude from Embry Riddle.
I'm not calling your qualifications into question, the problem is you sometimes say things that don't make sense (like claiming displacement/misalignment violates the conservation of energy), you sometimes quote sources that contradict your own claims (like posting a graph that shows the displacement you claim can't exist) and you sometimes post source material that isn't relevant to the specific claims you make. Furthermore, when it is shown that your claims are incorrect--sometimes using your own source material, you won't back down or reassess. You just ignore the contradiction and proceed as if nothing changed. Whatever your degree is, and however well you did in school, the content of your posts shows that you clearly don't understand at least some of material you are speaking on authoritatively--what else could explain your bringing up sources that obviously and directly contradict your own claims?

A case in point is that you have still chosen to completely ignore the source I provided which directly contradicts your claim about gas speed exit.
Certainly the gas can have supersonic speed, easily up to 5k fps, although very briefly.
For the purposes of calculating momentum, the exit speed is what matters.
 
I'm trying to understand what "misalignment" means (just trying to get a clearer picture for my own education)--does this mean the bullet is on an uncorrectable altered trajectory--or the bullet itself is destabilized in pitch/yaw/spin etc.? Thanks.
 
It's one of two ways to get a bullet off the intended flight path. It can be done by displacing it--moving it up/down/left/right. Or it can be done by causing it to point in a direction other than the direction it's supposed to be pointed--crosswinds do this.
 
I tend to get a little confused by what the frame of references are in these things.;)
Whatever it is, it needs to be eventually converted to the user's point of view. For shooting a rifle, it is the shooter or the poi on the target. That's what counts at the end of the day.

Somewhere in the thread, academic degrees were again mentioned. May I suggest we all check those at the door? No need to "pull rank" to shut others up.

I just caught eye of the statistics of this thread. 127k reads and 414 posts so far. Wow, I had no idea how big a mess I started. Let's keep it going!

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
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Wikipedia says:
Transitional ballistics is a complex field that involves a number of variables that are not fully understood; therefore, it is not an exact science.[6]

That is the only thing of consequence in that entire wikipedia article.

Wikipedia says:
The propellant gases continue to exert force on the bullet and firearm for a short while after the bullet leaves the barrel. One of the essential elements of accurizing a firearm is to make sure that this force does not disrupt the bullet from its path.

Mmmm...
In otherwords, your firearm is properly set up and crown properly designed...
There is no tail wind which is NOT going to cross the normal shock barrier anyway.

As I said:

Two things:

1. This very much explains the absolute importance of good crown on your barrel and the effect of the crown on accuracy. At the interface of the barrel, I have no doubt the expanding gases forced thru a defect would cause disruption in the flight of the bullet.

2. I can see in some cases were bullet geometry (boat tail with a defect on the tail) might make a difference. I would also think a large diameter, flat nosed bullet would create what's termed a detached Bow Wave might be a candidate too.

I think you guys are very much trying to claim the natural color of Sperm Whales is white.

JohnKSa said:

Nonsense.

When a damped system is perturbed, it will experience cyclic and transient oscillation.

If you move 10 feet towards the deep end of the pool and them move 10 feet back...
How far has your position moved?

How much energy did it take to move 10 feet and them move another 10 feet assuming conditions do not change?

In aerodynamics the language the Sierra Engineers use means it does not affect the outcome because it returns to its original position.....

That is exactly why they clarify:

Throughout the trajectory, including the initial transient period, the bullet has an “average” angular orientation which aligns the longitudinal axis almost exactly with Vbullet relative to the air.
 
I'm trying to understand what "misalignment" means (just trying to get a clearer picture for my own education)--does this mean the bullet is on an uncorrectable altered trajectory--or the bullet itself is destabilized in pitch/yaw/spin etc.? Thanks.

In the case of Sierra engineers it is the alignment of the bullet with the Relative Wind.

Remember the whole hoopala with people claiming the bullet did not act like any other body in flight by moving as part of the air mass.....

:rolleyes:


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If you move 10 feet towards the deep end of the pool and them move 10 feet back...
How far has your position moved?
Irrelevant. Look at your own graph in post #401.
In aerodynamics the language the Sierra Engineers use means it does not affect the outcome because it returns to its original position.....
They do not say that. You keep claiming that's what they say, but clearly you don't understand or you wouldn't have posted a plot that contradicts your own claim. The plot is clearly a case where there is small, transient cyclic motion but where the displacement at the start of the plot is different from the point where the motion damps out. That's exactly the case I've been talking about.
In otherwords, your firearm is properly set up and crown properly designed...
Yes. IF that's true (and the crown is undamaged), then after the transients are damped, the bullet should still be on the proper trajectory. But, as I said: " This is, in fact, why the muzzle crown is so important. If the force of the gases on the bullet as they escape is not reasonably symmetrical, the result can be that the bullet is displaced/reoriented after the initial small, transient, cyclical motion dies out." The graph you posted shows a case where that happens. You can read the graph and see that the position on the displacement axis is different at the end of the graph than at the beginning, right?
 
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