Phoenix Shootout

There is a follow up story in todays (3/28) paper. Front page. The headline is 'True hero' helps nab trio'

The URL to read it is:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/0328samaritan.shtml

For once an armed citizen is portrayed in a good light. It might have something to so with the fact he laid his life on the line for a LEO. It would be pretty hard to get that guy arrested by any LEOs around here on any kind of charge for his actions. My bet is they couldn't or wouldn't be able to find him.

Thanks to all for the warm welcome.

james
 
Great story for CCW citizens, did not see any of it in the Washington Post though. Pay attention on their reference to Glock 31 and emptying 14 rounds of 9mm. Got to love the news people for accuracy of their story.M33
 
My position on law enforcement is not consistent, I know that. It comes down to what I view as their primary tasks.

In the Minnesota, good cops (and I have only met good cops in my life) keep the peace and protect those who cannot protect themselves.
They also try to live down the bad carma caused by the very few bad cops.

In Russia, cops take people in for 10 to 15, kill people, strong arm and prevent people from protecting themselves from other predators.

Unfortunately, I also get an impression that enough cops in some places (New Jersey, New York City, Denver, maybe even in my town, but I have not heard of any) are closer to Russian uniformed thugs than to ideal American heros in blue. If I were to get stopped by a cop in Chicago, I would expect to die.

Not much logic here, just really bad vibes I get from dealing with people who are armed when I am prohibited from being armed. Those same people get to enforce disarmament laws. As a result, I would be much more on the side of police if they had bumper stickers "I support the Constitution" and actually followed that credo.

If you or any other cop were down, I would help. If a Gestapo officer was down, I might join their opponents. Telling who is who is where I get confused. :(
 
As an aside, the guy who taught me to shoot has been a cop, later LEO instructor.

The guy who helped me change a tire in the cold was an off-duty Indiana cop.

The man who helped me zero in my rifles is a paratrooper.

I keep seeing evidence of police/army being made up of good guys (I have yet to see evidence of DEA and other extraconstitutional gangs being even human.) So, I am not against cops or helping them...just wondering how you tell a good cop from a JBT?
 
Cornered Rat,

I think it comes down to background. For example, where you grew up (apparently) the majority of cops were bad and the SYSTEM was corrupt to the point where innocent citizens feared any interaction with the police.

Here in the USA (with the exception of mistrust by some minorities - perhaps for good reason) it is extremely rare for the police to do anything but the right thing. In my 44 years, I have never been treated poorly (OK, I don't like speeding tickets) by a uniformed policeperson.

I can say that if I were in the same circumstances as the man who shot it out with the cop killers, I hope I have the courage to get involved to try and prevent the murder of the policeman. Actually, assuming I could tell who was the bad guys I hope I would assist any person being murdered. And last, I hope I am never presented with the situation to find out.

Regarding the other acronyms (FBU, ATF), I'm not so sure I trust them. Especially the ATF. IMO they went well past their duty and assaulted people in Waco that deserved a different approach. And here in AZ they tried to pull a quick one in a town called New River with a toxic situation - they wanted to burn the stuff versus have someone look at less dangerous alternatives. That scenario stinks of coverup.


James
 
We discussed this situation briefly in my CCW class tonight, in the Phoenix area. The instructor couldn't help but appreciate the civilian's actions, but expects he may have a civil problem before it is all over. Of course, the story is changing a bit, and now it is being argued that he felt his own life was in danger from the BG's. Considering the circumstances, I would expect Phoenix PD to help him as much as possible, and I don't blame them for that at all. Nice to see the BG's caught for a change, and a damn shame we lost an officer to this trash. I'll bet those BG's were a little surprised at their predicament.

Civilian relations would be better with local LEO's if we got rid of our drug prohibition stupidity. However, federal LEO's have tarnished their reputations forever in my mind. They'll have to impress the younger generation, because many in my generation no longer see them as necessarily the good guys.
 
I just came from a week in Phx and heard a bit aobut this, as you can imagine. I didn't follow all the stories closely, but there was a rash of Police shootings last week there. As person who was following the stories told me that in half of the last weeks' shootings that an armed citizen came to the aid of the Police. Not surprisingly, the citizens were reported to land shots when the Police Officers were missing there's. This info came from a Phoenix resident who owns no guns, so he was not tooting a horn. One of the shootings was in Chandler, just south of Phx, where a crazy pulled a gun on a cop and was fired on by Police as well as citizens. The Citizen hit the perp; the Police Officers did not fare so well.
Maybe someone else can tell us more about the other shootings and citizens coming to the aid of the Police in Phx last week.

It is interesting and wonderful to see armed citizens protecting the Police. I don't think anyone is going to take up arms and goin the ATF in a raid on some compound, but protecting the average Police Officer is a good bet that you are on the side of the good guys.

thaddeus
 
It's ironic but many places have laws and ordinances requiring private citizens to assist the police in the performance of their duties if the officers request assistance. On the other hand, the courts are consistently ruling that the police have no such duty toward the private citizen. Strange logic but then why am I expecting rational logic from governments? I should have learned by now.
 
Ironically, there may actually be some good coming out of these tragic incidents. The incident that JimmyBCool started this thread with has now led to the head of the Phoenix police officers' union presenting an award to the citizen who shot one of the BG's. I actually heard they also gave him $500 with which to buy a new gun!

It would certainly be a blessing if more LEO's began to see decent, trained and responsible citizens as their allies and not threats. On this forum it has become clear that many LEO's are already there. In my CCW class again tonight it was clear that LEO's see our frustration with the practical reality of carry by civilians.

I am quite gratified to have seen our local LEO's react so well to the citizen who attempted to aid their fallen friend. It is appropriate that LEO's and decent civilians see each other in this light.

I continue to feel our drug laws and the federalization of 'crime' have burdened us all with too many unnecessary conflicts between LEO's and civilians.
 
As an aside:

Its pretty easy to imagine that citizens are landing shots better than cops in a lot of situations. Likely the Bad Guys are shooting at the officers and NOT at the citizens. More often than not the baddies are probably not even aware that they have another gun aimed at them until something goes BANG and they are suddenly sporting a .357 caliber body-piercing.

I've never been in a gun fight, but i have run a stress course many times. Even in those controlled conditions your shooting skills go through the floor. I can only imagine what its like to have bullets bouncing off stuff around you. Unfun.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Coronach (edited March 31, 1999).]
 
Very interesting thread. Question for any in the know: anyone know of any problems (i.e. charges, etc.) that these citizens who have lent their assistance to LEOs recently have encountered? Please say no.

BAB
 
Remember the recent shooting at a grammer school, where the vice-principal saw the kid shooting other kids with a 30-30, ran to his own car, and got his .45. By this time,the kid was driving his car, with more ammo for his rifle, towards the near by high school. The vice principal pointed his .45 at the kid, and demanded he get out of his car, which he did, and the vice principal held him for police. Several kids were severely injured in the shooting. The shooter wasn't injured at all.

The vice principal got a lot of hate mail, along the lines of 'how could you point a gun at one of your students.' I was astounded when I read about that aspect. I would have given the guy a medal.

Walt
 
If I lived near this vice-principal, I'd go to personally shake his hand and invite him to dinner. Well done, well done.
 
There was some talk of having the Vice Principal charged under the Federal law regarding having a firearm within 1000 feet of a school. People talked 'em out of that lame idea. It would have been real hard to convict him if he had of been charged.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
 
My heart was warmed seeing the great way the Phx.AZ cops supported the armed citizen, and I've really enjoyed the discussion; one thing seeped into my brain, though; in a firefight with BG vs LEOs, and you are in a position to help the cops, how do you avoid having the cops mistakenly see you as one of the bad guys and shoot you? Under that that sort of stress, anyone with a gun in the area might become a target. Hmmmm.

-Moss
 
Moss,

This was covered in another thread... I don't remember which one, but I'm sure someone here will recall it. ;)

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."
 
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