Phoenix Shootout

JimmyBCool

New member
Hello all,

I'm new here, and hope this post is in the appropriate place.

Yesterday, a LEO in Phoenix was shot down while on duty. The perps would have gotten away except for the actions of an armed citizen that, not knowing the officer was already dead, tried to intervene. The end result is,,,, 1 perp wounded, 2 in jail.

Comments?

James
 
you're right Ed. it'll never be seen or talked about. Why, we wouldn't want to show an armed citizen in a favorable way would we. this may cause doubts among some of the
anti-self defence people on their stance about the people having the right to own firearms. an armed citizen
that actually did something good? well, we just could show that

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fiat justitia
 
Yep, we'll never see it on the news or in the paper.
Welcome to the forum Jimmy.

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Justice for one,Justice for all.
 
Jimmy, where did you hear that a civilian helped out?



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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."
 
Welcome to TFL, Jimmy

I couldn't get the URL to work. The page I got said that article may be out of date. Maybe one of you folks who understand these *#$@% computers can hook us up a link.

At any rate, score one for the good guys!
 
Officer killed in ambush

First on Phoenix force to die in 8
years, 4th cop shot in 7 days

By Richard Ruelas and Christina Leonard
The Arizona Republic
March 27, 1999

A 27-year-old police officer pursuing drug suspects in
west Phoenix was shot to death Friday evening in what
authorities are calling an ambush.

He was the first Phoenix police officer to die of gunshots
in eight years. It's the fourth time in seven days a Valley
police officer has been shot.

"It's like it's open season on officers right now," said
Officer Troy Bartlett, a 10-year veteran, pulling his
motorcycle up to the shooting scene.

Police did not release the name of the five-year veteran
of the police force Friday night because his extended
family had not been told of the shooting.

The last Phoenix officer to die of a gunshot in the line of
duty was Leonard Kolodziej, 43, killed by a sniper's bullet
in September 1991.

A passer-by who saw the shooting near 31st Avenue and
Thomas Road took out his own firearm and fired at the
fleeing men, shooting one in the back. Other officers,
part of dozens who converged on the industrial park,
found two other men hiding in nearby businesses.

The officer was shot twice in the head, police said. He
died at St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center, leaving
behind a wife and 6-month-old child, police said.

Police Chief Harold Hurtt returned twice to the hospital
late Friday, visibly upset. But he declined comment.

Police did not release the name of the suspects.

The one who was shot in the back by the passer-by was
in Good Samaritan Regional Medical Center, but police
would not release his condition.

The officer's last call started at 35th Avenue and Thomas
Road, said Sgt. Mike Torres, a department spokesman.

The officer, in his marked patrol car, tailed a white
Lincoln Continental from a business known for narcotics
activity, Torres said. He would not identify the business.
The corner is home to a few bars, liquor stores, gas
stations and convenience stores.

The officer radioed that he was tailing a possible stolen
car.

He followed it east on West Thomas Road, followed it
when it turned left on 31st Avenue, then again when it
turned right on Catalina Drive, police said. The officer
kept radioing his location to dispatchers.

The car turned left again on 30th Avenue, but the three
men inside got out and waited just north of the
intersection, police said.

When the officer made the last turn, he saw the men
come out of the car and said, "Bail out." That was at 5:32
p.m., police said.

Initial investigation indicates the officer tried speeding
through the ambush of bullets fired by two of the men,
police said. Witnesses said they heard more than a dozen
shots before the officer careened onto the sidewalk and
into a light pole.

A man in a dark-green sedan saw the officer needed help
and started firing his own gun at the suspects, police
said. He struck one in the back, leaving him on the
ground while the other two suspects fled.

Police would not identify the gun-toting citizen but said
he was not injured in the battle.

The shooting happened in a busy industrial area, and
several witnesses heard or saw some part of the
gunfight.

The suspects tried to hide in businesses in the industrial
park, but witnesses pointed officers to them, police said.

One of the men wandered into Bristow Optical, on the
northwest corner of the intersection.

Ducking under a desk, Bridgette Farmer, 33, of Phoenix,
was on the phone to 911. The operator told her to stay
inside the building.

Farmer stood up, still on the phone, and noticed she was
alone in the office.

"I looked around and everybody's gone."

She dropped the phone and went to the front door,
where officers waved her outside.

Police found the suspect in one of the office restrooms.

The three suspects were going to be questioned by police
before they were booked into Madison Street Jail.

The fallen officer was rushed to St. Joseph's. He never
regained consciousness.

Officers streamed into the hospital late Friday, leaving
with sagging shoulders and bowed heads. Many stood
outside, consoling one another and chatting among
themselves.

Meanwhile, officers kept working Friday night, dealing
with traffic leaving the Phoenix Suns game, an armed
robbery along Central Avenue, kids knocking on doors
and running in north Phoenix and other routine calls.

"I hate to say it, but it's part of the job," said Officer
Scott Brown, guarding the east perimeter of the shooting
scene on Friday.

A Tempe police sergeant is still in the hospital following a
spate of shootings in recent days.

Phoenix Officer Lyn Butcher, 28, was released from the
hospital Wednesday. She was shot in the arm during a
traffic stop Monday.

Tempe police Sgt. John Schaper remained in fair
condition Friday at Maricopa Medical Center. He was shot
March 19 while arresting a trespasser on Mill Avenue.
Another officer, Charles Bridges, was also hit but saved
by his body armor.

"This heightens your awareness," said Brown, a
seven-year veteran. "Even on a routine traffic stop, this
can happen any time."

"This makes me appreciate my kids when I get home,"
said Officer Mike Orloski, an eight-year veteran guarding
the scene.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
We will not see Dan Rather with that story on TV nor will we see it in any news papers outside the area it happened in. Just like there as no major coverage of the armed citizen that saved a Texas officer's life by shooting the hell out of the bad guys.

Them's the kinda stories we need published.


------------------
Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
 
Does it bother anyone else that the bystander automatically presumed that the police officer was in the right? Here we talk about the fallacy of persecuting drug users, yet side with the police officers by default.

I suspect that the LEOs on this forum are part-reason for it. Also, you might disagree with the laws but still support the cops.

In my former homeland, cops were assumed to be the least worthy party. Sometimes honest cops were an improvement over gangsters they were fighting, but overall if you did not stay clear of the fight, you'd be expected to help the cop's opponent.

Just curious -- does everyone here side with LEOs by default? How about DEA? ATF? FBI? INF?

The reason I bring up the question is the mental picture of the "good Germans" coming to the aid of a Gestapo employee...and there, but, for the grace of God, go we...

[This message has been edited by cornered rat (edited March 28, 1999).]
 
Cornered Rat; a very intriguing question that you post. My feelings are that the citizens in this country, by and large, do 'side with,' and trust LEO's. This is perhaps not necessarily the case in inner city ghettos, but even in these locations, I belive the majority to be law abiding citizens. Citizens who call for the police when there is trouble.

The very exteme example posted above, where a citizen intervenes when a police officer is attacked is a very rare occurance. The usual outcome, however, is that citizens DO come to the aid of police officers, and will harm or even kill other citizens to protect the officer's life.

You should realize, however, that while the citizen acted in a legal manner, this would NOT have been the case if the citizen were the victim of the attack. The law generally holds that you may use lethal force to defend yourself, but once the threat is over (the person turns and runs away), you are NOT justified in using lethal force.

I think that the case in point is based on something called a 'fleeing felon' circumstance. If a citizen has viewed felonious activity, he can use lethal force to stop the escape of the felon. This is very shaky legal ground, however, and in less clear-cut situations than in the above incident, the citizen may well find himself the target of criminal and civil actions.

Even if you are legally shooting at a fleeing felon, however, you are responsible for your actions. If a ricochet hits a bystander, then you would probably be liable.

One further point. Nothing so enrages and motivates the police dept. as a cop shooting. Other things are put on hold while the cop killer is tracked down.

Hope this helps, and comments, questions and criticisms are welcome as always. Walt
 
I'm not sure what the CCW holder saw, but, _if_ the newspaper account is accurate, _and_ the CCW holder saw the entire endgame, it seems pretty clear that the officer is in the right. Anyone who sets up an ambush for a cop and opens fire on him on a city street is Pb-deficient. In this particular case, I don't think it matters which organization employs the LEO. Having said that, I doubt that either of the two above conditionals is true.
I do have a bias in favor of local police in these instances, though, since I still think the large majority of local police are good guys.

[This message has been edited by Tim Burke (edited March 28, 1999).]
 
CR,
You forget that all Police in USSR were national, not local.

As to the CCW holder. What he likely saw was the shots fired at a moving police car.

He may have shot while the BGs were still shooting for all we know. A shot in the back doesn't mean they were running yet.

As to the Fleeing felon rule the caviots to the rule here in Iowa are: the suspect has used Deadly force in the crime, and if allowed to escape would likely use deadly force against another. Both could be easily supported in this case.

Yes he could be held criminally and civilly liable for a bystander hit. I bet every officer on that Dept. would chip in on his bail and legal defense.

I've always said that a honest Citizen withj a weapon is not a threat to LEO and more likely would be back-up. Another case proves my point.

My brother in arms is dead, may God bless him and keep him.
 
CR,
In Texas, resisting arrest is a crime - even if the arrest is faulty, erroneous, violent, or any manner wrong.
I am not qualified to give legal advice, but what I have decided to do is to comply with the officer's every wish and, at the same time, state I want an attorney. Then I shut up - giving only my identification.
If the arrest is in error, I get through it without getting physically abused (or aggravating whatever abuse I may suffer). If the LEO's actions are inappropriate, at a minimum get an apology from the local authority, and (if warranted) I'll sue them back to the stone age.

Both luckily and happily, the LEOs in my area don't accuse, judge, & punish in the field. I trust them. If someone is shooting at one of our deputies, I may very well fire on the perp (depending on a host of other conditions, of course). On one occasion that situation occurred and my intent was clear to all present.

The key factor, as you point out, seems to be the LEO/citizen environment long before the shooting occurs.
Bottom line: My lack of legal qualifications notwithstanding, I'll give this much advice. Don't mess with a cop in my county. You will lose. Big!
 
Cornered Rat, I'll pick up this glove. I do not support in any fashion the drug laws of this country. Nor did I support the selective slavery system when it was active (the draft). However, I did not support people who left the country or deserted. I wholeheartedly supported people like Muhammed Ali who had the guts to go to jail for their resistance. I would not have supported someone who opposed the draft and killed a cop to avoid going to prison over it. Nor will I support drug users or sellers who kill a cop to avoid prison. Someone once asked a prominent man why he was jailed for opposing a bad law. His reply was to ask the other,"What are you doing free?" If people want to do drugs which is about the most stupid thing you can do with your body-hell, I'm all for it. Darwin awards for all. Think of it as evolution in action. We could win the "war on drugs" easily by buying the druggies more drugs and supplying them gratis. Let them kill themselves if that is their wish.

However, your analogy is flawed. There is no sytematic abuse of power by the average police on the streets in this country-yet. There was in the USSR and in the Third Reich.

My next door neighbor was murdered by not one but two on duty policeman. However, their actions were independent and were NOT the policy of their department nor were they acting on orders from their superiors. This is an important distinction.

I will not assist a law enforcement officer in any drug investigation not involving sale to minors. That does not mean I will condone the murders of those investigating such activity nor will I stand idly by while such murders occur.

The drug users of this country under the current conditions- if they believe their rights are trampled to such a degree-should use civil disobedience not murder to attain their objectives. If every drug user marched on the nearest police station and stated,"Hey, I'm holding, lock me up!" Well, I don't think they have the cell capacity...

I was arrested last August for carrying a concealed pistol without a license. I consider that a blatant violation of my constitutional rights. Should I have shot the policeman? I think not. There were too many avenues of recourse available to me. I was jailed for about six hours before I got bond set and wrote a check for it and walked to the office of the very best criminal attorney's office in the region. Paid him $3000 in six monthly installments. Weapons charges dropped in return for guilty pleas on traffic charges. About $4000 total and I have my CCW now to boot. (Which ironically was sitting on the judge's desk when I was arrested.) However, the point of this long rambling rant is that I had effective recourse short of killing an officer. If I had had no chance of bond, no possibility of effective legal counsel, the certainty of conviction by paid minions of a totalitarian state, and the certainty of torture and death while in prison-the situation would have very damned different. NOT ONE of these applied nor did they apply to the accused killers of the policeman. Until they do I am not justified in using lethal force against the police.

One caveat though, I will cheerfully comply with a knock and a search warrant by a police officer who is a little old unarmed lady. If she finds contraband she can handcuff me and take me away without any resistance whatsoever. ANY attempt at "dynamic entry" I will resist unto death.
 
As has usually been the case lately, I am almost totally in agreement with Byron. This is a good thing, since we associate a lot and "I've got his back". I believe any gunowning friends should discuss how they will handle any potential issues that could occur.
 
To sum up the responses: you expect to get a semblance of fair trial if brought in. The cop is merely doing his job, right or wrong, and deserves to go home at the end of the day.

Now you see why various guerillas recruit so many youngsters like me. All they need is a talk biasing their fight/flight/surrender response towards fight: and kids do view the world in absolute terms more often than the older people.

I guess I will hold off on equating a traffic stop here with a "papers!" request in our least favorite social democracy...aat least here the assumption is that we come out alive.

Of course, back in 30s or 40s Germany most people had the same assumption...

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Cornered "but cheery" Rat
http://ddb.com/RKBA Updated March 20
 
http://www.azcentral.com/news/0328samaritan.shtml


The Phoenix police are calling this guy a hero. Follow this link to the story
 
CR..

I may be wrong here, but I see a great deal of inconsistency in your position.

1) You say you support and campaign for RKBA and CCW but you seem to take objection when a citizen utilizes those rights for their intended purpose
2)You have used or supported the arguement that an LEO's life is not more important than yours in RKBA arguements....is the converse true? I.E..outside your circle of friends and family is your life more important than an LEO's?
3) Do you draw a distinction between a legally armed citizen coming to the aid of an LEO vs coming to the aid of a private citizen? I.E. is the LEO "on his own" cause he/she gets paid for it?
4) Does the private citizen have a responsibility to uphold standardly accepted conventions of law and order?
5) I'd like you to "design" your concept of the ideal LEO and contrast that design with the known variables of the standard off the shelf human being. Both the field LEO and the bureaucratic career management type LEO.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
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