Permission to search?

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Gentlemen,

I think the difference of opinions in this discussion works out to Meiji_man having enough confidence in the local police not to insist on following the procedure...and several other posters feeling that their trust may be violated if they do so. That does not mean that any one is an ass, IMO. Differences in opinions and perceptions of danger or lack thereof are not quite the end of the world.


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Oleg "peacemonger" Volk

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
Okay, here's an idea. What if the next time I'm pulled over by a cop, I pull out a small tape recorder and inform him that the entire encounter will be recorded "for his protection", and will be vigorously analysed later on by my ACLU friends? Is this legal? How do you think the LEO would react? I've been thinking about it for a long time now.

Or what if I informed him that my car contained a hidden microphone? Think he would be as quick to violate me? What do the LEO's out there think?
 
Well, the ACLU tends to view a traffic stop with a verbal warning as harrassment.

So, if the officer was about to issue you a verbal warning, or a ticket for a lesser infraction--in order to show the ACLU that the officer wasn't harrassing random motorists, the officer will issue the citation(s).

In other words, if you get pulled over for 85 in a 70 and your tag has expired, the officer may cite you for one offense and warn for the other, or, warn for both. With the ACLU involved, he'll cite you full-bore for both.

LawDog

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited July 27, 2000).]
 
If you haven't done anything wrong, then don't let them abuse you.

If an LEO is professional with me, then I show him the utmost courtesy that will allow him to do his job.

If an LEO decides he wants to F*** with me, then he/she will be put in their place.

They are public servants, and they must follow the rules just like the rest of the population.

Waterdog
 
Big difference between an officer hassling someone for no reason, and an escapee in the area. That is the reason the officer has to ASK, so I can say yea or nay. If he asks, EITHER answer is an exercise of my rights.
 
"I think at that time it would have been, Every minute they had to dick with me was another minute that the prisoner had time to escape."

Okay, lemme show you why I think you should always exercise your rights, especially in your situation with the gun in your bikebag (you lucked out).

Cop: Mind if I pat you down for your safety and mine?

You: Not at all, officer.

Cop: Mind if I search your pockets?

You: Not at all officer, I have nothing to hide.

Cop: Well, mind if I search your jacket?

You: Whatever will assist you in your duties, sir.

Cop: Mind if I search your bikebag?

You: ......

What would you say then? You have been cooperative with him the entire time. You gave, he took. But then you, what, allow him to search your bag and find the illegally possessed gun there? Or do you refuse thus making him very curious as to why you have suddenly changed your tone.

Better to exercise your rights from the begining. If they have no probable cause to search you (and they won't because you are a peaceful citizen) then they can't, unless you let them. If they do have probable cause they don't need your permission, although they may still try to get it anyway.

You won this time because the cop chose to stop, not because you stopped him. Stop him next time. And do it early. The more you give up the goods, the worse it looks for those of us who won't...not that that will stop me.

Rick
 
RickD, I don't think I "lucked out" with the gun in the bike bag. The Kali AG's office said that mode of carry was entirely legal. Of course, that doesn't mean I can't get screwed anyway. Also, I never _gave_ the cop permission to frisk me. I was ordered, with the accompanying threat of him having his hand on his pistol.

Anyway, Meji_man's experience sounds like a lot more trouble.

Dick
Want to send a message to Bush? Sign the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/monk/petition.html and forward the link to every gun owner you know.
 
Very first post from last Fri. Detailing my story from General.


No S*&^T there I was......

My plans for this weekend was to include driving a car from SLC UT to Seattle Wash.
Since I'd be driving though Four States and could only carry legaly in Two. I figured I'd
Leave my Carry at home.

Do we see where this is going???

I go to my folks to pick up the car I'm driving to my friend in Seattle who is buying it.
Try and Start the car and it's not running. Spend hours fritzing around with it till it's
showing some hope of running. I decide to try and drive it down to the store to fill the
tank up all the way and exercise it since it's been standing for acouple of months in
the garage. Now it's night. About half way there, yes you guess it, the car dies. I pull
off the main road on to a side road. So I'm sitting in the car waiting for the engine to
settle so I can try to start it again. I'm watching the traffic on the main road and
notice a LOT of cops running up and down the road. There flashing thier spotlights
everywhere and those little lights on the side of the Light bars. By now I'm starting to
notice something might just be up in the sleepy little town of Layton. Well I get
spotted. Cop stops up the road from me, I'm already getting the ID ready because I
know where this is going. I got to hand it to them they were all over me in about 30
sec. Three cruisers all with lights shining at me and I only ever saw two of the officers.
Next thing I know I got both hands sticking out the window and my DL in one and my
CCW in the other. They ask me who I am and take my DL to run it I tell them then I
say "Officer I have a CCW permit but I am not packing..." My line of reasoning was that
they probably gave the junior guy my DL to run it and I didn't want him spazing when
he saw the permit on the computer. Unfortuately I don't think the officer heard me
right because the pucker factor went through the roof . I quickly corrected him and
everyone chilled. Another officer checked out my bags in my car while I sat there with
my hands out the window. Everything checked out and then they tell me there's a
escaped criminal from the County lockup running around the area, wish me a good
night then they all tear off into the dark...

So there I am in the dark in a dead car with escaped prisoners running amok and my
guns 30 miles south secured in a closet. So what did I do? Called my MOMMY to come
save me. Then sat on the hood of my car quietly cursing all liberals, MMMs, Bill Clinton,
Bad Prison Guards, Freaken Crimals, Cops who leave you in the Middle of the night, The
States of Washington and Oregon. Until my MOMMY came and got me.

Sucks to be me.


All things considered MonkeyLeg looks like a clear cut case of harassment. Of course I really profile. Everytime I've had any kind of problems I've looked pretty shabby. At work I look like a clean cut computer geek. On the weekends I look like Charles Manson. The few times I've been jacked up by police I've always been looking like a very Shady Character. Once with a girl who looked 15 in a park past curfew. Once when I was 17 and looking like a pothead, (my first ticket, and I left the vehicle with out permission,and just handed my wallet to the cop instead of my licence, Bad Meiji) Etc.I just happen to profile like a perv or something.

Also rereading the story I notice that my sequence of events is off. They were telling me who they were looking for while they were running my licence. I knew what they were looking for before I gave concent to look though my bag.
------------------
Go Ugly Early.

AD HOMINEM; Helping Morons argue since 1549!!!

[This message has been edited by Meiji_man (edited July 27, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Meiji_man (edited July 27, 2000).]
 
Very simple, I've done nothing wrong,"Innocent Bystander", You want to search me? my vehicle?, My residence? Then get a Warrant ;)

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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous
 
Thing is, in many, if not most, cases, law enforcement is our friend. If I can make their overall job easier, I try to do so. In the case of the escaped prisoner bit, I'd gladly defuse the situation, likely in an identical fashion... Of course the cops would have found a couple of rifles and a bunch of cases, powder, rests, etc., along with the tent/camping box, in my trunk, but hey - the stuff's all legally stored. And the whole time they're giving me grief (if they do...), I'll be saying "hey, dudes, the prisoner's still out there!"

I DO NOT, however, think that a traffic ticket, etc., is then justification for a search of your vehicle and person. There's a fine line between aiding officers, and complete forfeiture of rights... I live next to a "nice" area of St. Louis, and it really frosts me every time I drive down the major road and see a black family standing on the curb while the local constabulary runs the drug mutt through their possessions.

Like I said, there's a fine line - and part of that line is determined by whether or not you want to make a big deal of things - I was in a friend's van down in southeastern Missouri, when he was pulled over at about 3 a.m... My current ol' lady was crashed in the middle seat following a fairly strenuous float trip, and the cop got tired of us whispering, so we bailed from the van and had our little discussion in the back. One of the first questions the cop asked was if we had any weapons, and I owned up to a shotgun, somewhere in the back. Didn't want to lie to him, and figured that telling him that it was none of his damn business would likely cause an escalation of the situation... Told him that as far as I knew, it was unloaded and locked up, and if he wanted to go looking for it, he was welcome to try to shift the debris of four days of camping and floating.

No problem - he's not goin' anywhere near that pile. Then he had my buddy (whose license and insurance card he still hadn't seen, root around in the _same_ pile until he found his pants, with wallet, from several days before. He didn't appear to be concerned about the firearm somewhere in the pile.

Of course, the main reason we were pulled over was as a roust, since the local boys were on alert for the Rainbow Tribe (or whatever they call themselves) people, who were planning a big gathering in a nearby state/national park area, and since my bud and I were both doing the long hair and tie-dye thang, we'd likely been called in from a convenience store we'd gassed up at on the edge of town... and by the time we got around to the standin' at the back of the van watching my buddy root through soggy stuff routine, the cop had already satisfied himself that we were long-haired hippie tourists, in the area to spend money, and acqire sunburns and rock bruises, and not long-haired hippie Rainbow Folks, in town to chase the virgins, scare the old folks, and generally cause him trouble. There's a big difference there...

When you open your wallet in a roust/wide pattern search, make sure the first thing the cop sees is something like an Amex or a solid work ID, and you'll already be up on him. You're establishing yourself, subconsciously, as a citizen/taxpayer type, not as a no-ID criminal type. That sounds like a little thing, but it goes a long way.



[This message has been edited by Bogie (edited July 28, 2000).]
 
To All:

Some of you may find an incident that happened to me to be of interest....

Years ago I was living in a 3rd floor apartment in Ohio. The sub-basement apartment was inhabited by a habitual drunk who used to stand outside and pick fights with people. "I'm a Golden Gloves champ! You wanna fight?"

His neighbors knew to simply pat him on the shoulder and say, "Naw... I don't want my ass kicked." Worked every time.

One evening, however, when I was upstairs chatting with a friend, there came the sounds of scuffling downstairs. Turned out that a guy and his girlfriend took offense, and the drunk had grabbed a baseball bat. They're swinging and punching at each other with absolutely no effect (both terribly uncoordinated) when my friend realized she knew the young man who was dodging the bat.

Since I was trying to get to know my friend a bit better, I figured I'd play hero. I took the bat away, sat the drunk down in his living room chair, and ordered the guy upstairs with my friend.

So far, so good. Then the cops arrived.

A lady cop (and no disrespect intended) and her two male partners. She came up towards my apartment, asking "Do you have his bat?"

"I certainly do," I replied. "I'd be happy to give it to you, but I'm not giving it back to him while he's in that state."

So far, so good again....

Then the problem started. She wanted to talk to the other guy. Feeling a bit proud of myself, I replied that I'd go ask him if he wanted to come out and speak to her. By this time the other two cops were upstairs behind her.

She had an immediate and enormous problem with my attitude. "I WILL talk to him," she insisted.

I repeated that I'd ask him. Now I was irritated, too - because she was trying to push her way into my apartment. Being larger, I was able to prevent her from doing this - and now I was engaged in a physical struggle with a police officer.

I also instantly noticed that her partners were not assisting her. After all, I couldn't have held the door against three angry adults.

I repeated that with no warrant, she had no right to enter my home. She insisted, as did I. By this time, funnily enough, the other two cops were making obnoxious faces at us... whether at me or at her, I'm still not sure. Didn't ask.

She finally said "Fine, I'll get a warrant then." I remember looking at my watch and replying,

"Great. You go wake a judge up at 4:30 on a Tuesday morning so you can get a search warrant to look for a witness to a domestic disturbance."

She pulled her foot out of the door, I slammed it, and then went back in the living room and ordered them all out... and never did end up with that girl.

Sorry for the length. Any LEO takes on this situation?

Best regards,

Robert Teesdale
 
Robert,
Sounds to me like the male officers have been this route with her and they were tired of it.
 
"I never _gave_ the cop permission to frisk me. I was ordered,"

Yeah, some dumb Supreme Court decision that said a "patdown search" is not really a search by 4th amendment standards. And heck, it's for his safety and yours.

If he can say that he had concern for his safety he can pat you down. And if he feels something that makes him think that you're glad to see him he can go further.

Rick
 
Originally posted by RickD:

Yeah, some dumb Supreme Court decision that said a "patdown search" is not really a search by 4th amendment standards. And heck, it's for his safety and yours.

Rick,
It is not a "dumb" Supreme Court decision. Put yourself in an LEOs position contacting somebody they don't know from Adam and then ask yourself if it is dumb. LEOs are killed in this country on a regular basis. This Supreme Court decision was made to give an LEOs some degree of safety to do their jobs and to hopefully allow them to go home at night.
 
I know the West Sacramento cop was either a rookie or hot-dogging it. Either way, it seemed like the best thing to do was comply, _especially_ since I was in California. When I told the story to a couple of Nevada sheriff's a day later, they couldn't stop laughing at what a boob the cop was.

Robert, you've got gumption. Personally, I wouldn't even have gotten that involved in all that.

As Karen (wife of Henry Hill in "Goodfellas")
said, "it's better to give them a cup of coffee and call the lawyers."

Dick
Want to send a message to Bush? Sign the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/monk/petition.html and forward the link to every gun owner you know.
 
"Put yourself in an LEOs position"

I always put myself in *my* position. My position is that my rights mean something. The officer should not be able to even touch me unless he has probably cause.

If the officer really wanted to be safe all motorists should have to immediately "assume the position" or be required to carry a set of handcuffs with which the fasten themselves to the steering wheel during stops for broken tail lights. We should ban drapes so that investigating officers can more easily peer into our living rooms..."If you have nothing to hide..."

All of this is Drug War BS. End the War on Drug Users and you will see fewer cops getting killed or injured.

One neighborhood cop was walking his dog in our park. He said that it is important that police have more contact with people. I assured him that what we needed was less police contact.

Rick
 
We've reached the 100K mark, so I'm locking this thread down. Takes too long to load. Feel free to start a part 2.

-Dave

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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
 
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