Permission to search?

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David Scott

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Over on the general forum, someone made mention of police wanting to search your vehicle. I read an article on this in an RV magazine and would like to share the high points.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

A request to search often comes after you're cited for a minor traffic violation. They only ask after that business is done because they don't want you to think there's any pressure to consent with the idea of getting out of the ticket by saying yes. Like so many other official intrusions into our lives, they will probably use drugs as an excuse, saying how much of a problem they have with drug mules and if you're such a good citizen you surely want to help us in the war on drugs.

A minor traffic violation is not probable cause to search your vehicle, and you are within your rights to refuse. You need not give a reason, but one inoffensive one is that you do not want to be delayed. The fact that you do not want to be searched without a warrant is not evidence that you have anything to hide. If you have a cell phone tell them you want to call your lawyer and ask for his advice. If you don't have a lawyer, talk to the time & temp recording and then tell the officers that your lawyer says not to consent if they have no warrant and you haven't been arrested. If pressed, keep asking if you're under arrest. If they arrest you, they can tow and search your vehicle, but if they can't substantiate a charge, their department is open to a lawsuit.

The delay will certainly be there if you say yes, because they can open and even unbolt anything. They may let the air out of your spare tire and pop its rim seal looking for drugs. They may pull up the seat cushions and carpet. If you have luggage it will be unpacked. You will have to wait around for the drug-sniffing dogs and maybe a forensic search team. When they are finally done, they will not put anything back the way it was, nor will they stay and stand guard over you on that lonely roadside as you repack your stuff, tempting prey for any felon that drives by.

Be warned that if they see anything through the windows that a reasonable person would suspect is something criminal, they can use that as probable cause. Having a pair of Uzis, a large bag of white powder and an open briefcase full of $100 bills exposed on the back seat is not wise. Ditto garbage bags leaking blood, or naked women.

As with all encounters with authority, only answer the questions asked and with minimum details. Volunteer nothing that is not required of you by law.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Scott:
When they are finally done, they will not put anything back the way it was, nor will they stay and stand guard over you on that lonely roadside as you repack your stuff, tempting prey for any felon that drives by.[/quote]

There oughta be a law against the above mentioned aftermath of a bogus search. Tell LE no way will you consent to search.


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Just one of the Good Guys
 
Why play the pretense game...

You don't have to consent to the search, and "calling (or pretending to call) your lawyer" will get you into a pissing contest with the officer. If you want to call your lawyer, then it looks like you have something to hide. Your right to speak to a lawer attaches after you are arrested or placed in custody and are asked direct questions related to the crime.

More than one case has been made because you go from someone who has committed a minor traffic violation, to someone who looks like they have something to hide. By asking to talk to a lawyer when you are asked for a search you just jumped into the reasonable suspicion arena, where you can be detained longer, and your personal information will be entered into a data base, you can be required to exit the vehicle and frisked. With reasonable suspicion the officer can and will call for a canine and you will stand by while the dog sniffs the exterior of your vehicle.

Bottom line, exercise your rights and don't appologize for it. If the officer has enought to detain you he/she will. Alot of people who want to talk to lawers before they have been accused of anything are the same ones that mouth the platitudes of "my cold dead fingers", and do nothing to stand up for themselves when they have the right to.

pat
 
Never, ever, never consent to a search of your person, automobile, or residence for any reason. You voluntarily forfeit valuable personal civil rights when you submit to this procedure.

If the authorities have proper legal cause to search you without your consent, they will do so without asking you.

Did I mention NEVER?

Skyhawk
 
Is a CHL and a weapon a viable reason to search?

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Abandon your animosities and make your sons Americans. Robert E. Lee

Beware the three D's: The dumb, drunk, and deranged.

Chadintex@hotmail.com
 
chadintex - No, in fact the contrary should apply.

If you have a valid CHL, then you have already had firearms training, already passed a background check and already have fingerprints on file with the state.

You are basically a "card-carryin' good-guy."

Check out this thread for another perspecive, though.


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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Except for Hamilton County until August 11th.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
 
my reply: "Well, (sir or ma'am), a good friend of mine who is an attorney has recommended that I never voluntarily waive any of my civil rights, and that includes my right to not be searched unless there is clear evidence of wrongdoing."

Funny part is, I've never been searched - only got pulled over once in the past 15 years, and that was in a parking lot when the officer noticed I had expired plates (doh!). My vehicles generally are home to a considerable number of bumper stickers - generally mostly Grateful Dead/Legalize It and NRA-type stuff...
 
IC609,

Simply conferring with your attorney on the phone, or play acting at it, is NOT considered sufficient evidence for police to conduct a probable cause search.

That's been tried, and kicked out in, I believe, one of the mid-western states some years ago. Going from memory here, the police cited the individual's desire to contact his attorney before consenting to the search as probable cause for a search. Upon searching the car, they found a very small amount of marijuana, for which the person was cited. The court threw the entire thing out because simply conferring with an attorney is not grounds for probable cause. I THINK that the police department got spanked pretty hard on that one on a civil suit later.

If it WERE sufficient to provide probable cause for a search, then simply refusing to allow the search would also present sufficient probable cause for a search, which also is not the case.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Ok, since I'm pretty sure it was my original posting that started this, here be my $0.02.

In my case of last Fri. The Facts are.
1)Cops are looking for a escapee.
2)Cops have a direction of travel.
3)Cops find a individual, WM 5'8" mid-late twentys, dirty white t-shirt, blue jeans,(me) sitting in a car on a side road with the lights off, in this area, on the "path" of the escapee.
4)Individual has a suitcase sitting on the passenger seat of the car.
5) Individual's reason for being there is "I broke down" and "I'm going on Vacation" but the hood is not up and car is well off the main road.

Probable cause?
I think so.

Did I let the nice officers look in my bag?
Yes I did.

DO I FEEL LIKE MY CIVIL RIGHTS WERE VIOLATED?
No, not at all. I also feel that if I had stated "No, you can't search my car based on my Civil Rights", the Cops would have been justified to hold me, call a judge, get a warrant, and then search my car. All on suspicion of aiding and abeting.
 
"Aiding and Abetting"?

Absolute nonsense.

It is clear that some people here need to practice exercising their rights. The last scenario would have been a prime time to do it.

"Probable cause"?

Reasonable suspicion only. If they had probable cause they wouldn't have had to ask your permission to search your possessions.

Rick
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chadintex:
Is a CHL and a weapon a viable reason to search?[/quote]

No, IMHO. "Probable Cause" means evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the law is being broken. What law would you be breaking in this cae? If you have a CHL your weapon is not evidence of anything other than the fact that you use the CHL that you obtained legally.
 
I thought not. The only time I've been pulled over since getting my CHL was when a loose wire caused my tail lights to go out. When the officer was told that I had a CHL he said have a nice night and drove off. :)

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Abandon your animosities and make your sons Americans. Robert E. Lee

Beware the three D's: The dumb, drunk, and deranged.

Chadintex@hotmail.com
 
Well RickD, I think that would have been the WORST time to decide to be a seabag lawyer and start screaming about my rights.
Based on the story I've given, there was in My mind at least probable cause and since I was the person in question I think I made the right choice.

On the other side, I also didn't mention that the area in question is a sleepy little burg and this was probably the most interesting thing to happen in a month. Add to that the fact that the cops (3 cruisers and I only saw 2 officers) were a little hyper at the time.
 
I advise against allowing them to search your vehicle, even if you have nothing to hide. If it's a rental, you cannot be sure there is no contraband left over from the previous renter. In fact, the street dealers in my city began to use rentals to conduct their business. That is defense, AND since the rental cars are not their's, the cars are not subject to personal property forfeiture.
If it's your own car, you still can't be certain. Did you recently allow your child to borrow it? He/She may have entertained undesirable "friends" who may have left something behind. God forbid your spouse has a drinking or drug habit which is unknown to you. There MAY be something in that car!
If you must be the good citizen who allows it, consider these condidtions. The entire proceeding must be video taped, preferably by a hand camera, and not the one installed on the cruiser's dash. They must have a supervisor present of the rank of Sgt. or above. The "cowboy" types who may be tempted to bend the law will be instantly weeded out. No LEO wants to go throught those hoops, let alone disturb a Sgt. from his coffee and newspaper w/o bonafied legitimate concern.
The preceeding has NOT been, nor should be construed as, legal advice of any kind. :)
 
Tell me what you think of this situation that happened to me two years ago on a motorcycle trip out west. I rode into West Sacramento, looking for a motel, and rode up and down the street where the motels were. Got pulled over, and didn't know why. The cop said "I can't read your plate." I looked at the plate and said "what part?" The state. I have a dime-sized reflector on the plate that cuts into the corner of the "W" in "Wis" about 1/16th of an inch. I told him it was Wisconsin, that I had my registration with me and reached into my vest to get it. He reached for his gun, ordered me to turn around, hands behind head, over the squad. Called another squad, did a full pat-down and started a series of questions: what are you doing here, why are you in California, why are you out West, etc. . I showed him every bit of ID, including my RNC card. At one point I reached in my pocket for a cigarette, and it was back on the hood again. I asked if I could smoke, he said no. After 45 minutes of this, he told me to find someplace else to stay besides West Sacramento, and I asked directions to the nearest freeway entrance.

Fortunately, he didn't ask if I had any weapons, because I had my revolver in my bag (unloaded). But, given the fact that I was dressed nicely in clean pants, a pin stripe shirt and cleanly shaven, I have no doubt this was a roust of the first degree. Should I have told him to shove it, or call his superior? Or was I best served by letting it go?

Dick
Want to send a message to Bush? Sign the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/monk/petition.html and forward the link to every gun owner you know.
 
Monkeykeg, first, DON'T GO TO CALIF. I would have certainly been tempted to tease the officer 'What part of the state don't you understand? Is it a problem with your alphabet and you don't know that two "V's" next to each other make the letter "W" or you haven't learned all 50 states and haven't made it down to the "W's" yet?'
As for spending the night, find a place and stay where you want. Also contact your nearest FBI office at the earliest time, especially if they take you to the station and file a kidnapping complaint. A guy in Oklahoma did this when the Sheriff, whose daughter he was not suppose to be dating, took him to jail. The FBI is required to investigate all reports of kidnapping.
 
"I think that would have been the WORST time"

In answer to the previous questions, the answer is "it is never a bad time to defend your rights."

Rick
 
I think at that time it would have been, Every minute they had to dick with me was another minute that the prisoner had time to escape. They explained the reason for my "stop" even though I was already stopped. And I had been watching them run up and down the road in front of me shining thier spotlights everywhere so I had a pretty good idea something was up. So, to start screaming "Civil Rights" would have been asinine, And would have pulled at least three officers off the hunt and on to me.

People, in thier agreement with a society that they choose to live in, trade a certain amount of thier rights for the privlidge to live in that society. Ergo, people trade thier ability to kill a person who wronged them, for the understanding that society will protect them from that wrong. I.E. no eye for an eye in the American judicial system.

With this in mind, it was my responsibilty to help the officers in thier search by removing myself as a suspect. The best way of doing this was to let them look in my bag (Which no one but myself had packed or touched), My mothers car, (don't even think about bringing my mother into this). And let the officers go on thier merry little way.

Sometimes a person defending his rights is just an ass.

PS. I would love a LEO take on the whole thing.
 
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