I heard that you can't shoot fast enough to make up for missing. i know this isn't what this subject is about but it is along the same lines and hi-cap magazines. In the army we would hose down the area with machine guns throwing a lot of ammo down range. This is not what cops or civilians are supposed to do here in the world. It seems to be what some cops do. Not too long ago a couple cops shot approx. 18 rounds, hit the bad guy twice, hit 8 civilians. It's a good thing they had hi-cap mags.
Percentage of cops who hit their targets?
- Thread starter 1911Alaska
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Spats McGee
Administrator
My gut reaction is something like this: "Let me get this straight. You're saying that because somebody else can't shoot worth a flip, I should not be able to carry a magazine that holds more than you think I should have?"
bamaranger
New member
consider
Please remember that police shootings and SD shootings are typically messy things. In other words, bad light, an element of fear and surprise, one is likely behind the curve of things, somebody's trying to kill you. It is not a trip to the range or another match.
That said, it has been my observation that more officers than I would have thought, are not good shooters nor particularly interested in shooting.
Please remember that police shootings and SD shootings are typically messy things. In other words, bad light, an element of fear and surprise, one is likely behind the curve of things, somebody's trying to kill you. It is not a trip to the range or another match.
That said, it has been my observation that more officers than I would have thought, are not good shooters nor particularly interested in shooting.
I gotta stand with Bamarangers post.
Most police officers are qualified, and can hit what they aim at. Most police officers dont get into gunfights. We all hear about the failures. No one ever talks about the officers who did settle the situation with his or her firearm.
You can quote all the experts, all the statistics, all the opinions you want. Until you've been in one you cant even imagine all the dynamics going on at one time. Each and every shooting is different. Could you defend yourself with three rounds?... of course. Might you need 15 rounds to defend yourself?... absoloutly. Each shooting is different. Some are comfortable with a 5 round gun, some comfortable with a 15 round one.
My experience is with the NYPD. During the heroin epidemic, the dust epidemic, the cocain epidemic, and the crack epidemic we(the department) experienced quite a few shootings.. Most of the shootings were all by officers serving on the tip of the spear. When NYPD Officers carried revolvers the hit ratio to shots fired was higher than after transitioning to autoloaders.
All officers are (were) fairly highly trained. And practice ammo available at dept ranges.
Most police officers are qualified, and can hit what they aim at. Most police officers dont get into gunfights. We all hear about the failures. No one ever talks about the officers who did settle the situation with his or her firearm.
You can quote all the experts, all the statistics, all the opinions you want. Until you've been in one you cant even imagine all the dynamics going on at one time. Each and every shooting is different. Could you defend yourself with three rounds?... of course. Might you need 15 rounds to defend yourself?... absoloutly. Each shooting is different. Some are comfortable with a 5 round gun, some comfortable with a 15 round one.
My experience is with the NYPD. During the heroin epidemic, the dust epidemic, the cocain epidemic, and the crack epidemic we(the department) experienced quite a few shootings.. Most of the shootings were all by officers serving on the tip of the spear. When NYPD Officers carried revolvers the hit ratio to shots fired was higher than after transitioning to autoloaders.
All officers are (were) fairly highly trained. And practice ammo available at dept ranges.
A couple of days ago I read the story of an officer in Baton Rouge who was involved in a scuffle with a suspect, and shot him. The suspect, George Temple, then overpowered the officer, and a bystander shot Temple 4 times with a 45, before firing a 5th shot to the head.
So your Facebook friend would be out of luck after 3 shots, even if she does have better aim than you. And I dare say, I doubt her aim is that good when the targets are shooting back.
So your Facebook friend would be out of luck after 3 shots, even if she does have better aim than you. And I dare say, I doubt her aim is that good when the targets are shooting back.
Spats McGee
Administrator
bamaranger makes a good point. It's not that cops "can't shoot worth a flip." There are lots of factors at play. My post was not phrased well at all. 
Lucas McCain
New member
I agree with Kraigwy's post . 1911 Alaska's problem is a debate on Facebook
bamaranger
New member
no numbers but.....
I dunno about scores, but I recall reading some SEAL books describing how much one Team shot in training , and the amount of ammo they were using was very, very high. I read this just before the first Gulf War, maybe in a Dick Marchenko (?) book.
If training rounds are any indication of proficiency, these guys anyhow, were likely very very good.
I dunno about scores, but I recall reading some SEAL books describing how much one Team shot in training , and the amount of ammo they were using was very, very high. I read this just before the first Gulf War, maybe in a Dick Marchenko (?) book.
If training rounds are any indication of proficiency, these guys anyhow, were likely very very good.
SEALs/SOAR/ACE(CAG)/ISA....
If you want to know more about US military special operations or weapons training there are many non fiction books about these tier one level units.
Rogue Warrior Inside the Delta Force Delta Force In The Company of Heroes Task Force Orange No Heroes Cold Zero SOG; Special.Operations Group Bravo Two Zulu .
Commander Richard Marcinko, US Navy SEAL who started & ran SEAL 06 then ran Red Cell(a covert group that tested security at military installations) wrote that he procured as much .45acp pistol rounds for the SEALs than the entire US Marine Corps that FY.
The ISA(also called Task Force Orange) was the Intelligence Support Activity. An elite US Army unit that reportedly beat out several pistol teams in the NOVA/DC area; FBI, Delta, SEALs, US Secret Service, DSS(Diplomatic Security Service).
In the book, the ISA members were even asked not to enter the matches anymore.
CF
If you want to know more about US military special operations or weapons training there are many non fiction books about these tier one level units.
Rogue Warrior Inside the Delta Force Delta Force In The Company of Heroes Task Force Orange No Heroes Cold Zero SOG; Special.Operations Group Bravo Two Zulu .
Commander Richard Marcinko, US Navy SEAL who started & ran SEAL 06 then ran Red Cell(a covert group that tested security at military installations) wrote that he procured as much .45acp pistol rounds for the SEALs than the entire US Marine Corps that FY.
The ISA(also called Task Force Orange) was the Intelligence Support Activity. An elite US Army unit that reportedly beat out several pistol teams in the NOVA/DC area; FBI, Delta, SEALs, US Secret Service, DSS(Diplomatic Security Service).
In the book, the ISA members were even asked not to enter the matches anymore.
CF
1911Alaska
New member
Thanks for the replys guys, I ended up making a long reply usuing a lot of info I found on here and all of a sudden her app isnt working and she cant view my message but can reply to me and is no longer in a debating mood 
lol
lolStand next to some big young guy at the pistol range with a human sized target 6' in front of him that he is blasting away at, and he is probably just doing shooting practice because he is supposed to.
But get next to an old guy at the rifle range that trains snipers, and you will see wind doping like you have never seen it. All 1/2" groups with a 223 in 6 mph wind gusts.
What does it all mean?
There are cops... and then there are cops.
But get next to an old guy at the rifle range that trains snipers, and you will see wind doping like you have never seen it. All 1/2" groups with a 223 in 6 mph wind gusts.
What does it all mean?
There are cops... and then there are cops.
No idea about SEALS, but the SF guys on our FOB used to give us boxes of ammo they had laying around. Not bad mouthing my old unit, but you'd thing in Iraq of all places, they'd supply you with ample ammo.
I'm almost positive that every time we went to the practice range there was a handful of them shooting. They mostly kept to themselves, but occasionally showed us some cool drills (while our LT panicked haha)
Saw a show on SEAL training and they said the minimum standard was to hit the target every time first time.
Don't think the line of argument works.
The thesis is that the average American is poorly trained and prepared for shooting in a life or death situation.
If the anti-thesis is that police officers who are trained and must meet minimum standards are also not adept; how does that invalidate the original thesis?
Imagine the argument as a first amendment one.
So most people are lousy writers ergo they shouldn't have free speech rights until they can write to a minimum standard.
Would the appropriate response be, "well most professional writers don't write very well either".
The right to self defense is about potential not ability. Just as most people won't write a newspaper article, most people will not use a firearm in self defense. But potentially we may do either or both. How well we do either is not as important has just having the chance.
Don't think the line of argument works.
The thesis is that the average American is poorly trained and prepared for shooting in a life or death situation.
If the anti-thesis is that police officers who are trained and must meet minimum standards are also not adept; how does that invalidate the original thesis?
Imagine the argument as a first amendment one.
So most people are lousy writers ergo they shouldn't have free speech rights until they can write to a minimum standard.
Would the appropriate response be, "well most professional writers don't write very well either".
The right to self defense is about potential not ability. Just as most people won't write a newspaper article, most people will not use a firearm in self defense. But potentially we may do either or both. How well we do either is not as important has just having the chance.
allaroundhunter
New member
I have shot with a good number of SF. A couple SEALs, but mainly Delta guys. They are not just great shots, they are very fast, great shots. These are guys that have actually had regular experience shooting while taking fire and killing other people, and as a result they are not as affected by the thought of being shot at like most police officers who haven't had that type of experience.
LockedBreech
New member
What's your day job that you have an opportunity to shoot with SEALs and Delta Force members?
I don't mean to imply anything, you just have to admit that post will raise a few eyes on the Internet.
allaroundhunter
New member
I'm actually on my school's competitive shooting team. The main place that I shoot and the range that my coach manages is the only place within a couple hundred miles that goes out to 1,000 yards and has the facilities to set up shoot houses. The local SWAT teams all train there, and in addition to shooting, I help set up for them.
We also have all sorts of instructors come there to give classes (with current and former SF being involved), so I get to meet some cool people. Bob Vogel even had a couple classes there within the past couple weeks.
There is one operator who came back from overseas to earn a master's degree and to become more fluent in Arabic. I shot with him a couple times in the 3 gun matches held out at this range and got to talk with him a bit. He recently went back downrange, and I'm looking forward to him making it back.
And at the Surefire Texas Multigun match I was in a squad with a former Recon Marine who now does contract work overseas. He was a fun guy to shoot and chat with. Very down to earth, but loves what he did with the Marines and currently does as a contractor. Lots of stories from him!
We also have all sorts of instructors come there to give classes (with current and former SF being involved), so I get to meet some cool people. Bob Vogel even had a couple classes there within the past couple weeks.
There is one operator who came back from overseas to earn a master's degree and to become more fluent in Arabic. I shot with him a couple times in the 3 gun matches held out at this range and got to talk with him a bit. He recently went back downrange, and I'm looking forward to him making it back.
And at the Surefire Texas Multigun match I was in a squad with a former Recon Marine who now does contract work overseas. He was a fun guy to shoot and chat with. Very down to earth, but loves what he did with the Marines and currently does as a contractor. Lots of stories from him!
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