Pepper Spray

The DOJ analyses find that OC works in about 85 to 90% of usages. That's pretty good - for those who like stopping power analyses. I have the article somewhere.
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DOJ stats are mostly from LE encounters so you also have to factor in the badge. Many people are shut down but the badge, radio, lights and the over power and out numbed psychological effect.

Also LE many times will spray anyone that gets mouthy or "non-complainant" at the drop of a hat, women, elderly etc. While your private citizen deals with violent predators attacking them.
 
Folks always focus on the one zombie bike meth cyborg, blah, blah. But it seems a good tool.
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You're right. But what I focus on, and what I think most people don't focus on enough, is getting sprayed YOURSELF. As others have posted, you get sprayed in copper school to get certified. If anyone thinks being in a shoot/no shoot situation is stressful, imagine adding to that you can't breathe or see and you feel like your face is on fire. There is absolutely nothing you can do to relieve the situation. Your instinct is to rub your eyes and face, which of course, makes it even worse.

I think that most pvt citizens, and even a lot of coppers, placed into the OC situation aren't going to be very aware of the wind/breeze/blowback factor. They might be pretty good at the firearm secondary target factor if using a gun, but there's really no way to practice OC spray very well. It's REALLY easy to spray yourself.

If you've ever chopped Habanero peppers and then accidently touched your eye or nose (or gone to the bathroom...:eek:) you've experienced maybe 1/100th of what it's like to have the emulsified mix sprayed onto your face. I've seen cops drop out of the academy because of it.

I would be very un-inclined to give a can to an 18 y/o kid (or anyone) and say "Here, use this if you get attacked".


Sgt Lumpy
 
Real reality TV....

On the long run of Dog; The Bounty Hunter on A&E TV, there are several events where Dog or one of the team get sprayed or hit with excess OC spray.
"Reality" or "unscripted" TV shows are not always real but those events do seem honest. Small rooms or confined spaces would cause any sprays or irritants to flash back.
This is where the thicker gels can work better(if they don't clog or misfire :mad:).

As brought up in other forum topics, make sure your OC/pepper spray is safe to use with any stun gun(s) or Tasers/EDWs.
There have been documented incidents where a subject was hit with chemical agent then shot with a Taser. The subject was then burned & seriously injured.

ClydeFrog
 
Im glad I read this I have been carrying a Sabre Red in my pocket for a year or so. I guess its about time to get a fresh can.
 
Less blow back danger with a stream than a cone.. Fox Labs here. NO OC is always effective, anyone that says it is, is clueless. If you use it, haul fanny out of there, but, call 911 ASAP!
No SD method pistols included, any cal. are 100% show stoppers, 100% of the time..
 
OC sprays; chemical agents, time.....

A good point posted here is to check your chemical agent often to make sure it works correctly.
Many OC sprays & cans have the date posted on them. My Sabre Red CrossFire Mark III runs until 2014 or so but I plan to replace it sooner.
It discharged when I tested it about 2mo ago so I feel safe with it.
Id add that humidity, extreme temperate changes, water-moisture, etc may also damage the OC spray or gel. Some packages even state not to transport by aircraft.

ClydeFrog
 
Something to ponder, Pepper spray, mace, etc. is a controlled item in many areas. You have to know the laws where ever you go.

HOWEVER, hair spray isn't. Hair spray is quite common with many women but it is just as effective as pepper spray & mace.

Many consider pepper spray/mace to be a weapon. Never heard of a local that limits hair spray.
 
Hair care products....

Id be leery of suggesting any hair care items for personal defense. :rolleyes:
They may be handy & "legal" but they may also be flammable, :eek: .

As some older TFLers may recall, singer/entertainer Michael Jackson had a serious injury on the set of a Pepsi cola ad in the late 1980s. His excessive hair care chemicals made his hair burn.

I also recall a scene in a 1970s era James Bond spy film where Roger Moore's 007 used a lighter & a spray can as a weapon.

You may say; "hey, that's some Mythbusters type stuff but Id caution you.
A female police officer in the Daytona Beach FL area had a event where she hit a violent subject with a Taser weapon. The darts hit a cheap lighter in a shirt pocket & caused serious burns. The man later sued the police officer, the city & the PD for a huge amount of $$$.

Keep in mind, even in a use of force event, your actions & mindset will be under close scrutiny by the prosecutors & investigators.
Whether its a OC spray, a Taser, a can of bug spray, or a firearm.
 
Good discussion. One thing: there is a lot of variability in pepper sprays. Something like Fox Labs and the cheap keychain stuff next to the register at Walmart are worlds apart. A few things I've picked up over the years, in no particular order:

1. NEVER carry it on your keychain. Your keys are likely to be on the bottom of your purse or deep in your pocket. You'll fumble and stumble trying to get to it, and then if you drop it or if it's knocked out of your hand, you're stuck without your keys as well. Keep it in your purse side pocket or on your belt.

2. Never hold it out in front of you so as to say, "hey, if you mess with me I'll spray you..." That does two things. First, it lets the attacker know you have it, so he'll shield his face or be ready to turn his head quickly. Second, it makes it easy to knock it out of your hand. Keep it in your hand, but in a pocket, side pocket or at your side, so you can whip it out and spray him by surprise.

3. Remember, the INSTANT the attacker recognizes what's happening, he'll hold up his hands and twist his face away from you. You'll have just a fraction of a second to hit him. That's why I'm strongly against "stream" sprays. An attacker violently ducking and weaving and twisting is almost impossible to hit with a stream. Go with the fog/mist. Yes, blowback is an issue. Just be aware of your wind direction.

4. I haven't tested these sprays, but have researched them extensively, and for all apparent purposes, nothing comes close to Fox Labs. There are a bunch of YouTubes showing people getting sprayed by this stuff, including ex-Marines and SWATs.

Try these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kAkHPuBM8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCQRF0dko9w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5TNzvajcVo


5. NEVER spray "just a little bit to see how it works." This can sort of break the seal and cause the pressure to leak out. Fox Labs, in fact, sells one filled with water, just for this "practice."
 
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Good points/Zarc-Vexor....

Those are great points but in fairness, Zarc(the firm that produces Vexor) states that the cans are safe to carry-use & are designed to work consistently in duty conditions.

As noted, Vexor is in wide use with major LE agencies & corrections but may not be available to private citizens.
 
Ruark, some manufacturers recommend testing your spray periodically to make sure it is still operating (and not just with training canisters).
 
Ruark, some manufacturers recommend testing your spray periodically to make sure it is still operating (and not just with training canisters).
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You're right, thanks. Even Fox Labs says it's OK, but not too often. I personally wouldn't do it; it's not worth the risk.
 
Deployment....

I would agree too with the advice to be discreet about deploying the chemical agent. I had a incident in 2011 with a intoxicated subject who became more aggressive when I pulled out my OC spray.

Id add that took issue with my OC/Mace class instructor(a retired cop & SE Asia combat veteran). He was a great teacher but told our class that a subject hit with OC or chemical agent will not be a threat or will comply with you & allow first aid to be used.
I highly doubt any career crook or gang member hit with OC or a EDW(Taser) will suddenly become docile or compliant. :rolleyes:
If anything, the smart move would be to flee(beat cheeks) or if working as a armed professional, secure or restrain the subject.
When the PD or local LE officers arrive, they can remove the restraints & apply first aid. EMTs & firefighters are trained to not provide aid until the area is safe.
 
When deployinv the spray retreat backwards to make sure you dont catch the spray and in the event the attacker decides to counterattack.
 
more is not always better and there are very specific reasons that half second burst is the norm in training. It has a lot to do with adrenaline and how excess OC can work against you.

free tid-bit of info:

Sooner or later You WILL get cross contaminated with your own OC. Keep this in mind when you "think" you want 4million SHU.

There are plenty of bursts in a 2 oz high pressure can

Foam is much better in confined spaces

ballistic stream is better than cone

its easy to underestimate the aeration ability of OC

More is not always better

Hotter is not always better

Non- high pressure cans don't seem to work very well

high pressure cans ( concave bottoms) seem to work well.
 
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I can't speak for the other commenters here, but I carry OC for a living and have used it numerous times against both people and dogs. I have also had it used against me in training (and once accidentally in the field [it was of the fog variety]), and am satisfied with its effectiveness. One thing to remember, is that even if the recipient is drunk, high, or a mental (and I have used it against all of these goofs), if you use it correctly, it will at the very least blind the person, which increases your tactical options.

....flip top cone spray... I'm a little concerned that this stuff is very hot.
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If you are concerned about this (and I would be), try and stay upwind, and get something other than a cone spray. The stream-variety works well and is aim-able.

I'm debating the merits of just having someone shoot me with it so I can learn how it feels.
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Not a bad idea, but remember: there is a reason we call it "Liquid Hell". No one who has ever been hit with it wants a second shot. A Dallas copper once told me that no matter how bad ass some knucklehead thought he was, "once he heard the velcro (on the OC holster) rip, it was time to straighten-up".


Obviously I'll buy some training inserts and we'll run through simple practices like keeping it concealed until you use it, half second bursts, spray and move, things like that.
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Less is better because if the recipient gets too much on him, the vehicle will overcome the active ingredient and reduce its effectiveness. If you go to a stream, it takes about 2-seconds to paint someone's face with it. After that, it takes 3-5 seconds for him to go blind and begin to choke.
 
Bear spray (30 foot) and a follow up zapper to shock the crude out of them. That works until they pull their gun while you have your hands full of spray.
 
That works until they pull their gun while you have your hands full of spray.
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Or until they pull YOUR gun because you caught the blowback and now have both hands instinctively in your face.


Sgt Lumpy
 
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