JuniorCommando
Moderator
JuniorCommando - contact me soonest.
Erick
Erick
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Pepper spray
- Thread starter leadcounsel
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
our CCWs really hanging by one or two bad incidents, those of you carrying 30+ bullets REALLY think that even in a worst case gang-jumping scenario that you're going to be shooting a full magazine, reloading and shooting another magazine!
90% of the arguments against carrying a spare mag are for jams.
As far as the jams, again you're missing the point. I don't carry a POS for a gun nor do I load POS ammo. My odds of needing deadly force are probably 1 in a million. But, since it's very important, I do carry. The odds of my gun failing once at any given time are probably 1 in 10,000. Failure twice in a row is probably 1 in 50,000. The odds of my gun failing AT THE SAME TIME AS I GET ATTACKED are so remote that I never consider it.
No. I know you don't carry a POS, but the best auto in the world will fail if you obstruct the movement of the slide, or fire with an incorrect grip. Chances of jamming durting a fight are so remote it can't happen? If you ever have a jam it will be while a couple of guys are beating the snot out of you. You are more likely to be shooting while being knocked off balance, shooting falling, shooting lying on the ground, or firing from a retention position and smacking the slide against your vest.
My $.02 worth.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Leadcounsel - whatever. You're Superman. And frankly, this is reached a point that is time wasting. That might be taken as rude but that's it.
Your doctrine stands against probably ever trainer out there.
You state as a civilian it is not necessary to use nonlethals such as OC because you are a martial arts superstar. Good for you. So your plan may work for you as you will suceed in all hand to hand combat.
The rest of us might prefer not to roll around in judo throws. I have a scar on my leg from doing that in my youth. I also didn't enjoy a couple of years ago, John Holschen of Insights pressing my old bean into the mat. Thus, if I can spray some intermediate threat, I'm going to.
There's always someone big and tougher in physical fight. Also, when in contact, a little guy can stick his finger in his eye. Distance is your friend.
About visual imagery training - good stuff. However, running around a range isn't FOF and imagery doesn't lead to the unexpected.
Good luck to you. I think I 'll pass on future educational experiences for you. You know it all. Let your disciples flourish.
Your doctrine stands against probably ever trainer out there.
You state as a civilian it is not necessary to use nonlethals such as OC because you are a martial arts superstar. Good for you. So your plan may work for you as you will suceed in all hand to hand combat.
The rest of us might prefer not to roll around in judo throws. I have a scar on my leg from doing that in my youth. I also didn't enjoy a couple of years ago, John Holschen of Insights pressing my old bean into the mat. Thus, if I can spray some intermediate threat, I'm going to.
There's always someone big and tougher in physical fight. Also, when in contact, a little guy can stick his finger in his eye. Distance is your friend.
About visual imagery training - good stuff. However, running around a range isn't FOF and imagery doesn't lead to the unexpected.
Good luck to you. I think I 'll pass on future educational experiences for you. You know it all. Let your disciples flourish.
leadcounsel
Moderator
Good points W. I wonder which is easier, particularly dodging attacks from attackers:
1) rack the slide to clear a jam with a spare hand or
2) drop the mag, retrieve spare mag, insert spare mag correctly taking your eyes off target, rack the slide at least once to clear the jam and possibly need a second rackage for loading chamber....
I must ask again, if there is such a REAL concern about Failure to feed or extract, why not carry a revolver? Most gunfights are 3 shots. Revolvers often have 5,6,7 and even 8 shots.
1) rack the slide to clear a jam with a spare hand or
2) drop the mag, retrieve spare mag, insert spare mag correctly taking your eyes off target, rack the slide at least once to clear the jam and possibly need a second rackage for loading chamber....
I must ask again, if there is such a REAL concern about Failure to feed or extract, why not carry a revolver? Most gunfights are 3 shots. Revolvers often have 5,6,7 and even 8 shots.
leadcounsel
Moderator
Glenn,
First, if I'm outnumbered by assailants that's a situation I leave or draw on because it's an imminent lethal situation.
If you draw OC to address a non-lethal situation, what prevents your opponent from drawing his gun and, standing over your chalk outline giving his police statement claiming he legally thought that you were drawing/holding/aiming a lethal weapon at him. In a blur a can of OC can easily be confused with a lethal weapon. And there sure are going to be alot of witnesses that say that you drew first and aimed a palm-sized object at him.... Sure raises the level to reasonable doubt against homicide and offers a legit excuse for self defense... Here is the law in COLORADO.
CRS 18-1-704 (2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:
(a) The actor has reasonable grounds to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury;
Hence, there isn't a reasonable jury in my state that will convict when you drew a weapon, even a non-lethal weapon, first and the shooter 'reasonably thought' it was a lethal weapon and you meant him imminent great bodily injury and shot first in self defense.
To that end, someone draws any weapon on me, I'm not waiting to see what that weapon is and they ain't gonna have time to second guess their weapon choice, which "sured looked like a bersa thunder in that instant that I drew and protected myself from the imminent lethal force."
IMO, as a lawyer with a real understanding of self defense laws IN COLORADO, drawing ANYTHING from your pocket and aiming it in a hostile situation is grounds for lethal self defense immediatley, no questions asked. As soon as you preceive a lethal threat it's time to defend yourself with a lethal threat. The assailant goes for a pocket in a hasty move, I'm drawing and aiming immediately. If it looks like a weapon, I'm not waiting to find out what it is. For instance, last summer a cop was cleared of a shooting under the following facts. The cops were answering an emergency call from a home. The cop was entering a bedroom window under a warrentless search (or maybe a search warrant; irrelevant) and saw a man with a silver object in his hand in the bedroom. The cop shot and killed the man in the mans' own bedroom. The object? A silver can of soda (or beer, don't recall).
Don't believe me. Try this with a police officer sometime. In a tense situation, I double dare you to make a sudden move for a coat pocket and aim something harmless small and black/shiny at a cop and see how quickly you're staring at the business end of a pistol.
I think your civilian self defense techniques are not only bunk, but dangerous and can put you in more threat than you contemplate.
First, if I'm outnumbered by assailants that's a situation I leave or draw on because it's an imminent lethal situation.
If you draw OC to address a non-lethal situation, what prevents your opponent from drawing his gun and, standing over your chalk outline giving his police statement claiming he legally thought that you were drawing/holding/aiming a lethal weapon at him. In a blur a can of OC can easily be confused with a lethal weapon. And there sure are going to be alot of witnesses that say that you drew first and aimed a palm-sized object at him.... Sure raises the level to reasonable doubt against homicide and offers a legit excuse for self defense... Here is the law in COLORADO.
CRS 18-1-704 (2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:
(a) The actor has reasonable grounds to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury;
Hence, there isn't a reasonable jury in my state that will convict when you drew a weapon, even a non-lethal weapon, first and the shooter 'reasonably thought' it was a lethal weapon and you meant him imminent great bodily injury and shot first in self defense.
To that end, someone draws any weapon on me, I'm not waiting to see what that weapon is and they ain't gonna have time to second guess their weapon choice, which "sured looked like a bersa thunder in that instant that I drew and protected myself from the imminent lethal force."
IMO, as a lawyer with a real understanding of self defense laws IN COLORADO, drawing ANYTHING from your pocket and aiming it in a hostile situation is grounds for lethal self defense immediatley, no questions asked. As soon as you preceive a lethal threat it's time to defend yourself with a lethal threat. The assailant goes for a pocket in a hasty move, I'm drawing and aiming immediately. If it looks like a weapon, I'm not waiting to find out what it is. For instance, last summer a cop was cleared of a shooting under the following facts. The cops were answering an emergency call from a home. The cop was entering a bedroom window under a warrentless search (or maybe a search warrant; irrelevant) and saw a man with a silver object in his hand in the bedroom. The cop shot and killed the man in the mans' own bedroom. The object? A silver can of soda (or beer, don't recall).
Don't believe me. Try this with a police officer sometime. In a tense situation, I double dare you to make a sudden move for a coat pocket and aim something harmless small and black/shiny at a cop and see how quickly you're staring at the business end of a pistol.
I think your civilian self defense techniques are not only bunk, but dangerous and can put you in more threat than you contemplate.
... I wonder which is easier, particularly dodging attacks from attackers:
1) rack the slide to clear a jam with a spare hand or
2) drop the mag, retrieve spare mag, insert spare mag correctly taking your eyes off target, rack the slide at least once to clear the jam and possibly need a second rackage for loading chamber....
You still don't see the point. When your mag ends up in the gutter or full of mud while clearing a double feed, mag gets knocked out in a fight, baseplate gets knocked off in a fight, #1 won't work. Gotta go to #2 or back up gun.
I know none of this stuff happens to you in a fight. Your Glock is made by Austrian elves who work for Glock in the off season, and it's covered with the same magic dust that holds up Santa's sleigh. My Glocks are the plain old Glocks from Georgia. No magic dust there in GA, just plain old dirt.
why not carry a revolver?
Actually, most of the time I do. 5 shot snubby.
leadcounsel
Moderator
My magazine in my XD (which is the gun I carry) requires deliberate force on the release button to drop the mag... I'm talking "deliberate" force. Another reason why I carry the XD. The baseplate doesn't really slide off as easily as you may believe. It also takes deliverate force with a tool to remove it.
My magazine isn't going to get knocked out of my gun; Jet Li isn't going to reach up and grab the slide release and disassemble my gun in a split second; the floorplate isn't going to slide off; the bullets aren't going to FTF and if they do there's a simple fix -- a one second slide rack. Problem solved.
I am glad that you carry a revolver though. Problem solved. Next topic.
My magazine isn't going to get knocked out of my gun; Jet Li isn't going to reach up and grab the slide release and disassemble my gun in a split second; the floorplate isn't going to slide off; the bullets aren't going to FTF and if they do there's a simple fix -- a one second slide rack. Problem solved.
I am glad that you carry a revolver though. Problem solved. Next topic.
....and back to the OC discussion
Wow talk about off subject. For those that are still on subject there are three things to be aware of on the subject of OC.
First, know your state’s laws in carrying any kind of chemical agent.
Second, do not rely on what you may have seen in movies or have read about the effectiveness of OC. I can tell you from first hand experience some people are not affected by it at all and some do not feel the effects until their own adrenaline dump has worn off. If it is going to work against an attacker the effects will show immediately, if you don’t see this occur then choose another weapon.
Third, and probably most important, do not take legal advice from online forums.
Wow talk about off subject. For those that are still on subject there are three things to be aware of on the subject of OC.
First, know your state’s laws in carrying any kind of chemical agent.
Second, do not rely on what you may have seen in movies or have read about the effectiveness of OC. I can tell you from first hand experience some people are not affected by it at all and some do not feel the effects until their own adrenaline dump has worn off. If it is going to work against an attacker the effects will show immediately, if you don’t see this occur then choose another weapon.
Third, and probably most important, do not take legal advice from online forums.
LOL! What we all need is a revolver that spews pepper spray in addition to blasting cartridges. Instead of the internal lock, S&W could install a pepper spray button and canister. Draw your weapon and push the button to spew pepper spray first. If that doesn't work, the trigger finger gives you access to lethal force.
I get a kick out of the hand-to-hand combat experts with too much confidence. The fact that you can break bones, dislodge joints, serve up instant knockouts, etc., does NOT mean that you should engage predators instead of escaping the situation. The very best martial artists are brought down to the predator's level once a weapon or a group of attackers is produced. If survival is your MO, you do not engage; you escape. Pepper spray, guns, and tactics are all means to DISengage, deter, and get the hell out of Dodge.
To stay on-topic, this issue can be complex. You need to assess the situation correctly. If there's no weapon, get the pepper spray in your hand. If there IS a weapon, you need to get a handle on your gun. Instinct will guide your behavior, if you trust it. But I'm still in favor of the pepper spray spewing revolver.
~Ichiro
I get a kick out of the hand-to-hand combat experts with too much confidence. The fact that you can break bones, dislodge joints, serve up instant knockouts, etc., does NOT mean that you should engage predators instead of escaping the situation. The very best martial artists are brought down to the predator's level once a weapon or a group of attackers is produced. If survival is your MO, you do not engage; you escape. Pepper spray, guns, and tactics are all means to DISengage, deter, and get the hell out of Dodge.
To stay on-topic, this issue can be complex. You need to assess the situation correctly. If there's no weapon, get the pepper spray in your hand. If there IS a weapon, you need to get a handle on your gun. Instinct will guide your behavior, if you trust it. But I'm still in favor of the pepper spray spewing revolver.
~Ichiro
- Status
- Not open for further replies.