Penetration versus Expansion

I realize there is a difference in the way the two weapons kill but both archery gear and bullets do make holes. For us who are avid archery hunters penetration is every thing. It does not really matter how big the hole is when you pop a balloon (lungs) it still pops. So from what little I know about the subject I would say penetration is what is important. Making two holes in two lungs no matter how small ( to a point) brings an animal down.
 
Drop Faster?

Lets say there are two hunters, both of which have the crosshairs of their rifles planted on deer. The deer are both one hundered yards away. They pull the trigger and the bullet from both rifles hit the heart area.

One guy hits the deer with a 25 caliber bullet at high speed, the other hits the deer with a slug from a .45-70 that is equivalent to a "blackpowder" round. Which deer do you expect to drop faster?

What if the two bullets hit the same animal higher, the shoulder for example. Which hunter is likely to find the deer closer to where he initially hit it?
 
That really depends on the animal. Some don't want to die. Some are dead on their feet and just don't know it yet. Others fall over from wounds that are marginal.

The only way to guarantee an animal will drop in its tracks is to either hit the brain or spinal column. Both are low percentage shots.

Hit an animal through both lungs and he WILL die. If the bullet expands and exits it will be quicker and give a better blood trail.
 
"which factor is more important when shooting bullets into animals, expansion or penetration?"

From reading, penetration is more important on heavy-boned dangerous game. The ability to break bones to immobilize is "hunter protection". Many loads used in Africa are solids.

From my experience with the .243 on whitetails, expansion without exiting can render the heart/lung mass into a double handful of yuck. Sorta raises the question of, "How much penetration?"

For such as an angling shot on an elk, penetration is very important, but controlled expansion provides a bleed-out channel with extensive tissue damage. I guess, just offhand, I'd rate them as equal...

I've noticed on Bambi, however, that with a neck shot it doesn't matter. (Giggle-snort.)
 
Art - you are a sicko!!!

.284 - funny, I'm a former 8541 and feel the same as your friend...lodge in the skin on the far side. That's perfect world though.

I use the old Winchester Fail Safes (Not the Nosler CTs) in my .308. 180gr ones. I'm primarily an elk hunter, but I use the same load on black bears, deer, coyotes - everything. Just because I get tired of re-sighting in all the time. The bullets were designed to expand, and often, the petals shear off and the roughly remaining 160gr projectile penetrates extremely well - always punching out the other side. This doesn't always happen, though. I shot a black bear with this load and the Fail Safe penetrated over 4 FEET!! Needless to say, it was a frontal shot. And since I hunt elk a lot, I like that potential for penetration. This bullet did not shed its petals.

I like BOTH penetration AND expansion, and look for loads that will do both. Frankly, I haven't found another bullet that does it as well as those old Fail Safes. Barnes are close - Etips, have been disappointing, but the old CT Partition Golds are nearly as good.

The rub is, you really can't pick and choose, you need both in the rifle load when shooting big animals like elk, moose and the brown (type) bears. For deer and smaller stuff...a 180gr .308 Fail Safe expands enough, to kill any deer I'll shoot, and penetrate a lot. For deer, I don't care, really, how much it expands. They are easy to kill. Elk, not quite so much, so the expansion/penetration mix is more important.
 
Does the species that is being shot affect which is more critical? If you had to loose some of one to gain some of the other, which would you choose?
Click to expand...

Critters up to the side of deer can be killed very quickly with bullets that expand rapidly. Never had the 150 Sierra exit a deer, and all but one died in their tracks. At '06 velocities, not much meat was ruined. The 180 gr's tend to exit. The 165's sometimes do, and sometimes don't, and is a good compromise for 30 cal. at .308 or '06 velocities.

Been my experience that all 130 gr. bullets in .270 are deadly effective and also very destructive on meat.

Other calibers I don't have much experience with on big game, but I'd go with the 100 gr. for deer in .243 class rifles.



When animals get bigger, they're less impressed by quick opening bullets that create hydrastatic shock. The same stretch cavity that is so effective on human adversaries, doesn't always work on larger big game.

For bigger stuff (especially dangerous critters), bullets that penetrate (even thru bone) are preferable, even thought the bullet tends to exit. Some hunters like bullets that exit because of the blood trail should the animal run off some.
 
Another BOTH vote, its important to match caliber, and bullet to game. I have seen plenty of whitetails wounded by bullets that were too stout and just zipped through. Then if you use a faster expanding deer bullet on a large thick muscled animal your going to be in for some excitement you didn't really want. Either way if you mess up you may be in for some serious exercise, one will be chasing and the other will be being chased.:D
 
Wow, you guys did such a great job covering this subject that I had almost nothing to add.
Have an observation, though. While I'm obviously a big fan of large, slow chunks of naked lead I'm also impressed by the amazing selection of high quality jacketed bullets that allow us to tailor a load to a particular animal and situation. It's a great time to be a handloader!
 
Aw, Sarge, I'm just real picky about not hurting the backstraps or hams. My daddy always told me that if you shoot Bambi in the white spot, he is seriously patient about waiting right there for you.

Best if he's standing by the jeep trail, of course. :D
 
LOL Art... I managed to 'backstrap' a fat doe once, with a 175 grain dead-soft Privi Partizan JSP from a 29" Remington Rolling Block- with a bore about like a nail file. I nearly cried when I walked up & saw what was left of my favorite woods delicacy :eek:
 
I'm with the "both" crowd, I want it to expand and exit the far side. However, let me throw one more thing into the equation here - I've run into an awful lot of people over the years who don't really know where to shoot an animal for that perfect heart/lung shot. Many people seem to think it's higher than it is.

Anyway if you hit the deer in this spot (low in the chest), he's going down right there no matter what slug you're using.

deershot.jpg
 
Kodiak, if you moved your dot forward smack in the middle of the leg you would have 'my' shot. They usually just flop or fall on their noses.
 
I'll gladly swap that bottom third of shoulder for not having to track the backstraps all over creation ;) Besides, most of the old plodders I hunt with just knock a hole through em anyhow.
 
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