Penetration Over Maximum Expansion? Handgun rounds

[USSR]

Maximum expansion and penetration deep enough to damage vital organs without over penetration will also cause a large amount of blood loss.

So, how do you control the amount of penetration when you can possibly meet varying amount of resistance to bullet penetration? In other words, a shot below the rib cage would find only soft tissue and little bullet resistance. You design a bullet that will penetrate in that environment without exiting and then use it for a shot that say hits a rib or the humerus, and you have a bullet that probably won't reach vital organs. On the other end, since most serious self defense ammo has a hollowpoint bullet, the clothing worn by the target can plug up the hollowpoint not allowing it to expand and basically turning the bullet into a solid with enhanced penetration. The fact is, you can't have the same amount of penetration in all circumstances. All you can do is ensure that you will have adequate penetration in a worst case scenario, which is something the FBI learned after the Miami Shootout and is why they set a standard for the amount of penetration, which in many cases will result in an exit wound.

Yes, missed shots could result in hitting unintended
Targets. But isn't it the responsibility of the shooter to minimize the possibility. Especially buy not intentionally using ammo that will over penetrate.

Of course it's the responsibility of any shooter to minimize the possibility of missing the target, but in the heat of an active shooting situation with adrenalin flowing, it's easier said than done. Witness the 20% hit ratio in the police shooting I referenced in my last post. Police typically qualify twice a year with little to no shooting in between, so you can't expect much. Please explain how by "not intentionally using ammo that will over penetrate" you reduce the possibility of missing the target? Cheapshooter, while your sentiment about over penetration is noble, the plain fact that you cannot control the amount of penetration leaves you with this basic question: in a self defense situation with your life on the line, what are the possible consequences of a bullet that fails to penetrate adequately .vs a bullet that completely penetrates? Again, just MHO.

Don

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Relying on blood loss to incapacitate is a great way to get yourself killed.
The only immediate incapacitation that can be relied upon is disruption of the central nervous system.
Blood loss takes time-a lot of time if someone is attacking you.

 

[Cheapshooter]

Again, you pick and choose like a CNN anchor.
My point being that being determined to have a round that will intentionally over penetrate is unnecessarily adding to the possibility of collateral damage.
The balance to seek is a round that penetrates deep enough to damage vital tissue, and expand enough todo a large amount of damage when it gets there.
Yes, Bill is absolutely correct. Disrupting the central nervous system is the only sure, and immediate way to stop an attacker. But there are other ways although not 100% reliable, but quite possible. Blood loss being last on the list because of the time it takes.
Physical shock from pain. Pain which can increase with increased tissue damage done by a fully expanded bullet. Possibly also exacerbated by an object with sharp, jagged edges, expanded pedals of the bullet, lodged somewhere in body tissue or organs.
Mental shock, basically fainting at the realization you have just been shot.
Thirdly, wait around a couple minutes until you faint from blood loss. A couple minutes or so while you can shoot at your intended victim with even more determination in order to now extract revenge on the guy that shot you.
Relying on blood loss might be fine for putting venison on the table, but not the first choice for making sure you come home to that table.

 

[44 AMP]

My point being that being determined to have a round that will intentionally over penetrate is unnecessarily adding to the possibility of collateral damage.

One man's over penetration is another man's adequate penetration.

The situation of collateral damage is one thing for a meto police department, and something else for citizen A, and something else again for citizen B, and is entirely dependent on situational factors unique to each individual shooing situation.

You and I can postulate any and every situation we can think of, all have some validity, because reality does include the really uncommon situation as well as the common ones.

You see a high risk of collateral damage due to over penetration.
I see a serious risk to my health and well being from under penetration.

If a round does not routinely exit then we don't KNOW it has sufficient penetration to reach the vitals under all circumstances.

MAYBE it does. Maybe it doesn't. I prefer to reduce the amount of "maybe" to a personally acceptable minimum.

 

[Cheapshooter]

The situation of collateral damage is one thing for a meto police department, and something else for citizen A, and something else again for citizen B, and is entirely dependent on situational factors unique to each individual shooing situation.

For a citizen it can certainly a matter of conscience. If you have one when you accidentally kill a 6 year old, young mother, or pregnant innocent bystander. Maybe if pass through penetration is your goal you are absent a conscience.
Then it falls on economics, and money. Something you will most likely have none of, or a house, car, your guns, or anything else after the liability lawsuit.
If a pass through happens, it happens. A person would have to deal with it however they can. But to expect, and intend on it happening is nothing but irresponsible.
There are plenty of rounds that pass the FBI protocol of 12" minimum, but not over 18" in order to at least try avoid a pass through.

 

[USSR]

Maybe if pass through penetration is your goal you are absent a conscience.

Cheapshot,

Yep, you got me, no conscious. It's a poor man who tears down the man when he can't tear down his argument.

Don

 

[briandg]

One man's over penetration is another man's adequate penetration.

This is just awesome, it clarifies everything.When i was a teenage stick figure standing in the street wearing a T shirt, a .32 acp probably could have gone right through me, and gone through a wall behind me. My gargantuan lard butted cousin, the humungous sumo chump could suck up a dozen .32 rounds and maybe not even have them hit a vein. this man's overpenetration is my cousin's underpenetration.


Take a look at a packer cut beef brisket, look at the inch thick layer of hard tallow, feel the toughness of that meat, then think about the eight inch layer of lard that plenty of people are hauling around these days.

Do I want a 9mm bullet that will expand to an inch, and sacrifice all of the momentum to deforming the bullet and then displacing the first six or eight inches of tissue, before it even reaches the vital organs?

No, not at all. I want that bullet to go into him far enough to reach and possibly even sever his spine. I like expansion, and we can have that too. Every quality round available now has several features that allow wide mushrooms and flutes that allow it to retain a higher SD than a normal bullet. It gives good expansion while still allowing an extra inch or so of penetration.

So, to my thoughts, the idea of uncontrolled, random expansion, just for the sake of expansion, is flawed.

Every time I see these discussions I am treated to the unwanted mental image of tony, wearing that god awful fake leather jacket, sneaking a handful of dirty magazines into his mother's house. HOW IN THE WORLD ARE YOU GOING TO DEAL WITH THAT?

It would make me very sad if I wound up having no choice but to shoot some skinny little rat of a guy and have someone injured behind him as the bullet blows through his back. realistically speaking, though, how often does that really happen? Out of the thousands of rounds fired in combat situations, how many people are accidentally shot by either police or civilians who had to use their weapons for defense? That, I assure you, is not common. I cannot really remember having heard of a bullet injuring a bystander after popping through another.

I believe that most of the collateral damage incidents involve just randomly spraying rounds in crowded places.

 

[muzzleblast...]

... I want that bullet to go into him far enough to ... sever his spine...

So, in COM terms, penetrate the sternum, various innards, and continue with enough momentum to pulverize the vertebrae. Sounds like a worthy objective.

 

[Sharkbite]

So, in COM terms, penetrate the sternum, various innards, and continue with enough momentum to pulverize the vertebrae. Sounds like a worthy objective.

Except that with a shot that hits below the ribcage (yes, low shots happen in gunfights) you will blow right through the intestines and out the other side. Then we will be saying it over penetrated.

There is no free lunch. Trying to get enough penetration, without over penetration, in the myriad of possible body structures to deal with is a daunting task. Thats why so many have struggled for so long on the subject.

IMHO, the FBI has done its homework in the lab and come up with a useful compromise. Is it perfect? NO. But gunfights never are. Mtpl hits center mass with a ctg that meets the FBI standard will give you the best chance of stopping the threat, baring a CNS hit

 

[Cheapshooter]

There is no free lunch. Trying to get enough penetration, without over penetration, in the myriad of possible body structures to deal with is a daunting task. Thats why so many have struggled for so long on the subject.

Correct. But it seems some have no concern for being responsible enough to even try. But rather plan on a complete pass through without regard for the possible consequences.

 

[Danoobie]

This is just awesome, it clarifies everything.When i was a teenage stick figure standing in the street wearing a T shirt, a .32 acp probably could have gone right through me, and gone through a wall behind me. My gargantuan lard butted cousin, the humungous sumo chump could suck up a dozen .32 rounds and maybe not even have them hit a vein. this man's overpenetration is my cousin's underpenetration.


Take a look at a packer cut beef brisket, look at the inch thick layer of hard tallow, feel the toughness of that meat, then think about the eight inch layer of lard that plenty of people are hauling around these days.

Do I want a 9mm bullet that will expand to an inch, and sacrifice all of the momentum to deforming the bullet and then displacing the first six or eight inches of tissue, before it even reaches the vital organs?

It would make me very sad if I wound up having no choice but to shoot some skinny little rat of a guy and have someone injured behind him as the bullet blows through his back. realistically speaking, though, how often does that really happen? Out of the thousands of rounds fired in combat situations, how many people are accidentally shot by either police or civilians who had to use their weapons for defense? That, I assure you, is not common. I cannot really remember having heard of a bullet injuring a bystander after popping through another.

Thank you, couldn't have said it better, myself. Can't even imagine a scenario, where
somebody would be defensively shooting, in a crowd of pregnant women and children.

But let's digress to Sumo-boy, for a second. Morbidly obese people are going to have a very negative reaction to being shot; that aside, penetration could be anything from straight
through a neck or arm, to down the arm, and into the body, even the best pistol round penetration is not going to go all the way through 30+ inches of muscle and flab. So
maximum expansion may cause nerve damage at a critical point, with the onset of
massive pain, if the expansion hits a nerve crowded area, like some areas of the hand and forearm.

Anybody care to weigh in with experience of the effectiveness of a person, after they had been shot through an outstretched hand and arm? Let's go one further, a FMJ may penetrate further into the outstretched arm, hitting shoulder nerves, other body nerves, and causing further incapacitation,
or not.

Bodies are different, situations are different, and, if in the rare instance
you get into an defensive shoot, no mathematical formula is going to
dictate a BG's reaction, how the bullet's going to injure the said BG's tissue,
or his determination, and resolve, or lack of it, after being shot.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is, foremost, we're dealing with pistol rounds, which don't produce the predictable massive hydro-shock style
wounding of a rifle caliber, so IMO, it's a personal choice, either of which
could be great OR lousy, given the proper circumstances, at any given time.

 

[Nanuk]

Correct. But it seems some have no concern for being responsible enough to even try. But rather plan on a complete pass through without regard for the possible consequences.

Then you mitigate the risk thru tactics, use the appropriate bullet selection and carry on.

 

[Danoobie]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Which all sounds good in print.

But how about a situation where a guy is raising pistol. You fire defensively.
The round, which is expansive defense ammo, hits him in the chest, and expands,
and the guy drops like a sack of potatoes.

Same scenario the guy raises his arm in the way of the bullet, it hits the fat of his forearm,
then deflects thru the bicep, without expanding or hitting any nerves or anything vital.

Same scenario, you use FMJ, hit him in the chest, full penetration and out the back, hit
nothing vital, he feels it, but keeps on coming.

Same scenario, you shoot that FMJ into his outstretched arm, through the hand, wrist,
upper arm, and into the chest hitting nerves all the way, and causing incapacitating pain,
the guy passes out, and falls down.

It's all the same situation, in two cases expanding ammo, two with FMJ, and
one each was success, and a failure, depending upon timing and circumstances.

 

[Nanuk]

Which all sounds good in print.

And in real life.

But how about a situation where a guy is raising pistol. You fire defensively.
The round, which is expansive defense ammo, hits him in the chest, and expands,
and the guy drops like a sack of potatoes.

Then you are done.

Same scenario the guy raises his arm in the way of the bullet, it hits the fat of his forearm,
then deflects thru the bicep, without expanding or hitting any nerves or anything vital.

Fire until the threat goes away.

Same scenario, you use FMJ, hit him in the chest, full penetration and out the back, hit
nothing vital, he feels it, but keeps on coming.

The closest thing to FMJ I carry is a 200 grn hard cast DEWC in my 44 Bulldog @ 1000 fps, it does not deflect. Fire until the threat is gone.

Same scenario, you shoot that FMJ into his outstretched arm, through the hand, wrist,
upper arm, and into the chest hitting nerves all the way, and causing incapacitating pain,
the guy passes out, and falls down.

Then you are done

It's all the same situation, in two cases expanding ammo, two with FMJ, and
one each was success, and a failure, depending upon timing and circumstances.

No, you are just being argumentative. You illustrated why this subject develops such discussion. I personally carry calibers and rounds that I know are successful on the street in a multitude of shootings and a multitude of different scenarios. The ones to me are magnum revolvers, 357 Sig, 40 S&W loaded with light for caliber bullets moving fast, 9mm +P+.

 

[44 AMP]

even the best pistol round penetration is not going to go all the way through 30+ inches of muscle and flab.

The BEST pistol rounds will.

But they aren't common street carry, because the recoil too much, and penetrate too much, etc....

Ask the hog hunters, ask the deer hunters, about how much penetration the BEST pistol rounds can have. You might be surprised.

Same scenario, you use FMJ, hit him in the chest, full penetration and out the back, hit
nothing vital, he feels it, but keeps on coming.

OK, but you left out this one...
Same scenario, you use FMJ, hit him in the chest, full penetration and out the back, hit something vital, he feels it, and drops like a rock.

And, as far as the pain from a gunshot?? Don't count on it. Maybe it becomes a factor, but not one you can count on. Knew a cop who had been shot in the arm during a gun fight. Now, granted it was "only a .22 Magnum", but the bullet entered his arm near the elbow, skidded down his arm, through the rear of his hand and stuck in the wood grip of his revolver.

After the fight was over, he noticed he was bleeding.... (no pain, no shock noticed during the fight)

Knew a guy shot with a 160gr SCW .357 slug on top of a stiff charge of H110. Struck in the shin, bullet traveled downwards, shattering 17cm of bone (and I mean shattered, no piece larger than 3/8") Said he never felt any pain, until after he was in the emergency room. Seeing the blood pouring out did make him woozy, though...

Wife's uncle was shot, in the heart with a .22 as a teen. Bullet lodged in the heart muscle wall. Docs refused to remove it, too dangerous...

He did die. 60+ years later!! (and NOT from the bullet)
and he was 300LB+ nearly his entire adult life.

So, yeah, maybe you have to stop a rabid ferret that goes 5'2" and a buck 20, or maybe you have to stop the cape buffalo who only missed out on being an NFL linebacker because he ran just a little to slow to qualify...

SO, carry something that won't blow through the little guy (to protect all those innocent bystanders...) and maybe that big guy absorbs your entire ammo supply THEN breaks your neck, (because none of your rounds penetrated deeply enough to reach a vital spot) before bleeding out....

Or maybe something else happens. My crystal ball is really cloudy about what will happen. One thing I do know though, is that I can't call a time out and ask my attacker to wait while I switch to an appropriate gun & load for their bodymass.

I can tell you that you can find documented cases where everything used has worked and where that same thing has failed.

There is no magic bullet.

Carry what you feel best carrying, I'll do the same.

Just don't hide behind the guy I have to shoot!

 

[USSR]

Ah, 44 AMP, you have no conscience.

Don

 

[Nanuk]

even the best pistol round penetration is not going to go all the way through 30+ inches of muscle and flab.

Best at what? Self defense or hunting. Solid bullets in 10mm, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 44 magnum have penetration in animals measured in feet.

 

[stonewall50]

So, how do you control the amount of penetration when you can possibly meet varying amount of resistance to bullet penetration? In other words, a shot below the rib cage would find only soft tissue and little bullet resistance. You design a bullet that will penetrate in that environment without exiting and then use it for a shot that say hits a rib or the humerus, and you have a bullet that probably won't reach vital organs. On the other end, since most serious self defense ammo has a hollowpoint bullet, the clothing worn by the target can plug up the hollowpoint not allowing it to expand and basically turning the bullet into a solid with enhanced penetration. The fact is, you can't have the same amount of penetration in all circumstances. All you can do is ensure that you will have adequate penetration in a worst case scenario, which is something the FBI learned after the Miami Shootout and is why they set a standard for the amount of penetration, which in many cases will result in an exit wound.







Of course it's the responsibility of any shooter to minimize the possibility of missing the target, but in the heat of an active shooting situation with adrenalin flowing, it's easier said than done. Witness the 20% hit ratio in the police shooting I referenced in my last post. Police typically qualify twice a year with little to no shooting in between, so you can't expect much. Please explain how by "not intentionally using ammo that will over penetrate" you reduce the possibility of missing the target? Cheapshooter, while your sentiment about over penetration is noble, the plain fact that you cannot control the amount of penetration leaves you with this basic question: in a self defense situation with your life on the line, what are the possible consequences of a bullet that fails to penetrate adequately .vs a bullet that completely penetrates? Again, just MHO.



Don

Just a comment on clothing. I see this as being a limited issue, but better determined by location. I live in Florida. So 8 months out of the year? Maybe even 12...nobody is wearing clothing that will impact a hollowpoint from a 9mm or larger. Not with modern ammo. I know I know...fbi Miami...but the bullets used were from 1986 or prior. Hollowpoint .38 specials and crappy 9mm ammo from the same time too. So not a good example. Not when we look at modern stuff.

Maybe if you live where it gets REALLY cold...I can see this being a concern. But only on something thicker than sweatshirts and lighter jackets.

Anyway. You may not be able to control the penetration. But you can pick the bullets you use. A .45 or 9mm instead of a .44 magnum. And a proper defensive round that you test that and doesn’t regularly pass through all testing material as if it weren’t there. :shrug:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Nanuk]

Maybe if you live where it gets REALLY cold...I can see this being a concern. But only on something thicker than sweatshirts and lighter jackets.

It does not matter. The heaviest clothes you can think of are not armor.

 

[44 AMP]

It does not matter. The heaviest clothes you can think of are not armor.

And yet there was a police shooting in NYC not too long ago, where it was reported that several (4 out of 6, I think) of the approved police 9mm rounds were stopped by the Carhartt jacket of the guy they shot.

In the real world, bullets do strange things. Unexpected things, sometimes. And no matter how well they perform in testing, sometimes, in reality, they perform differently.

Yes, I have no conscience , at least not in the way you are expecting. I WANT that round that Indiana Jones shoots through 3 Nazi lined up one behind the other, because that way, I know it will do the job on one, if I do my job right.

(and no, I'm not talking about 9mm ball as a primary choice, I'm talking about the penetration from any angle being sufficient, and then some.

There is a difference between as low as possible and ALARA (as low as reasonably achievable). You want a round that reduces risk due to complete penetration to be as low as possible. To do that means incomplete penetration. While that decreases the risk to people behind the bad guy, it increases the risk to the people in FRONT of the bad guy (meaning, me)

The way I see it, if you're a police officer, you are getting paid to take that risk. I'm not.

Its your butt, so its your call.