penetration or expansion?

I agree that expansion does little good without sufficient penetration. However, with premium HP ammo in 9mm/.38 +P and larger, you can get both expansion and adequate penetration.

.380 and Standard Pressure .38 Special are the borderline for expanding ammo, some of it is OK, but it depends heavily on the loading and what type of gun you're shooting it from. As a general rule, I consider most HP's to be OK out of a .380 with a 3.5" or longer barrel and a Standard Pressure .38 with a 4" or longer barrel. For shorter barrels in these calibers, the only expanding ammo I'd trust would be either Hornady Critical Defense, Buffalo Bore, or Double Tap.

9x18 Makarov is a bit of an exception as I think it could be good with premium JHP's, but the only premium JHP ammo widely available for it is the Hornady XTP which exhibits, IMHO, lackluster performance. For this reason, I'd stick to FMJ in 9x18 Makarov. Likewise, larger calibers that lack premium JHP loadings like 7.62x25 Tokarev or .455 Webley are better off with non-expanding ammo to ensure both reliable function and adequate penetration.

Calibers smaller than .380/Standard Pressure .38 should be loaded with non-expanding ammo like FMJ, LSWC, or LWC. One exception to this is a .22 Long Rifle handgun. In that caliber I prefer CCI Velocitor 40grn JHP. This is because in the gelatin tests I've seen this loading rarely expands but does penetrate very well (basically, it acts like a hot FMJ).
 
Expansion is nice, penetration is fine, and placement is final.
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Placement won't do much if it doesn't penetrate deep enough to do significant damage.

Placement AND penetration are both essential, IMO.

Ken
 
This is a tough one, especially for a smaller round like a .32 auto. I still go with hollow points (expansion) for safety reasons (overpenetration), as well as a larger wound capacity. However, I generally have mags or speed loaders loaded with both FMJ and JHP for all my handguns.

I like to have a choice ... :p
 
I still go with hollow points (expansion) for safety reasons (overpenetration),
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I keep hearing this explanation. Sorry, nothing personal, but I think it's a totally bogus argument.

People worry about overpenetration where a well placed round might possibly exit the intended target at low velocity, but don't worry about all the rounds that go flying past the target at full speed :confused:

You are not going to get a one shot stop with .32acp JHP.

Police statistics are that less than 1 in 10 rounds even hits the target. Now I know that we all fantasize that we can do bullseye shooting in an emergency and that we are far better than police officers. Sorry, I don't buy it! In an unexpected self defense situation, it's not like standing at the range, taking your time, shooting at a defenseless paper target.

Why worry about an on target round exiting the perp at 50 fps whle ignoring the other half dozen rounds flying past him at 800 fps?

If your really think a a .32acp fmj is going to overpenetrate and wound a bystander with a good, on target hit, I don't think you are acquainted with the reality of a .32acp round. I think there is virtually zero chance that a COM .32 is going to exit the body. If it did, it would never have enough energy left to seriously wound someone else.
 
Bullet placement is very important; but it's not the be all, end all. If the well-placed bullet dies from loss of energy before it gets through all the musle or bone or fat it encounters on its way to the vitals, or if it can't penetrate whatever else comes between it and the vitals, it's good placement won't matter much.

My solution for getting both good penetration and a big hole too, is to use a big caliber - a .45, and a hard SWC bullet.
 
I keep hearing this explanation. Sorry, nothing personal, but I think it's a totally bogus argument.
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Nothing personal taken, but I still disagree.

People worry about overpenetration where a well placed round might possibly exit the intended target at low velocity, but don't worry about all the rounds that go flying past the target at full speed
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Good point.

You are not going to get a one shot stop with .32acp JHP.
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I personally don't believe in a one shot anything, regardless of caliber. You shoot to stop a threat. Odds are, you're going to shoot a BG with more than just one bullet. That's why shot placement matters the most.

Police statistics are that less than 1 in 10 rounds even hits the target. Now I know that we all fantasize that we can do bullseye shooting in an emergency and that we are far better than police officers. Sorry, I don't buy it!
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You and me both brother! I didn't mean to imply I would be any different than the police averages.

If your really think a a .32acp fmj is going to overpenetrate and wound a bystander with a good, on target hit, I don't think you are acquainted with the reality of a .32acp round.
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I would argue no one is, except one who has actually been shot by one.

Final argument: the ammo debate is academic, and has been beaten to death on boards like these. Theory just doesn't interest me. Hollow points feel safer to me both by minimizing collateral damage and by maximizing the wound channel. I certainly could be wrong. But as I stated earlier, I actually have magazines loaded with both JHP and FMJ. Either/or is actually my view on bullets. They will both do what you need them to do, provided your aim is true.
 
Overpenetration really isn't something to be overly concerned with in a .32 ACP. Even the FMJ rounds are typically within the FBI's 12-16" specifications while JHP loadings are usually under that if they expand reliably (many in that caliber do not).

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm
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Thanks for the post. Yes, it looks like expansion is unreliable, which is good since the penetration sucked for the rounds that did expand!

I am surprised that the fmj did penetrate as deeply as it did.

HOWEVER, I believe gelatin tests are supposed to mimic flesh. That's okay for a belly wound, but if you are going for COM, you are going to have to go through bone first. Maybe the HP will expand when hitting bone and then only go an inch or two beyond that? I have my doubts that it's much of an immediate stopper. I would have more hope that a fmj would make it through and, might possibly have some penetration left.

Probably the best hope for a .32 is a neck hit, but trying to do that with a mouse gun would be extremely difficult in a real life emergency.

Ken
 
I very seriously doubt that expansion of .32 JHP's would be more reliable after hitting bone. Remember, it is hydraulic pressure within the HP cavity that causes expansion. The problem with .32 JHP is that it neither has enough velocity nor a big enough cavity to achieve reliable expansion, and when it does there isn't enough momentum to provide adequate penetration.

IMHO, the best strategy if you have to shoot with a .32 is to load it with the hottest, heaviest non-expanding ammo you can get (Buffalo Bore's 75grn Hardcast, Fiocchi 73grn FMJ, or S&B 73grn FMJ would be my choices) and plan on having to fire multiple shots to the upper chest, neck, head, and/or pelvic girdle. One nice thing about a .32 is that in larger guns like a Walther PP, CZ 70, Colt 1903, Beretta M1935, or Mauser HsC, recoil is very mild and the guns are usually quite accurate making precise shot placement easier than a larger caliber might be.
 
I alternate HP & FMJ in my .32ACP. If the HP doesn't expand, then I'm no worse off then w/ a RN and I've got a FMJ to back it up. Easy peasey.



Just make sure to thoroughly test feed & function before going this route (100 flawless rounds for me.)
 
I alternate HP & FMJ in my .32ACP. If the HP doesn't expand, then I'm no worse off then w/ a RN and I've got a FMJ to back it up. Easy peasey.
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While alternating round does give you both expansion and penetration (though you have to fire multiple rounds), understand that the biggest problem with .32 JHP's isn't that they don't expand (though most don't reliably). The problem is that they don't penetrate very deeply when they do expand. Also, a .32 FMJ will still penetrate more deeply that a .32 JHP that doesn't expand because the FMJ's are typically heavier at 71-73grn as opposed to .32 JHP's that typically run about 60grn. Alternating the magazine on a .32 isn't a bad idea as long as your gun will run reliably that way (some won't).
 
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