Penetration- 9 vs .45
- Thread starter Double M
- Start date
Just saw this thread:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89736
According to it the 9 FMJ will in fact out penetrate the .45 FMJ.
Sorry, you may have to buy your hombre a nice cervesa.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89736
According to it the 9 FMJ will in fact out penetrate the .45 FMJ.
Sorry, you may have to buy your hombre a nice cervesa.
You lose. Besides "all things being equal" includes FtLbs energy of the bullet, and that's a function of bullet weight and velocity. You're obviously comparing a 9mm bullet with significantly less energy than the .45. You still lose.
There's a post somewhere on TFL where they were doing actual tests of a .45 and 9mm on toll or parking attendant booths they were manufacturing. The toll booth stopped the .45 while the 9mm went right through.
But let's do a little analysis taking two typical FMJ offerings by Federal in their American Eagle line:
A 124 gr. 9mm has about 345 FPE (Federal AE9AP) and a .45 about 370 FPE (Federal AE45A). However, the frontal cross sectional area of the 9mm bullet is 0.099 square inches and the .45 is 0.159 square inches or 161% of the 9mm's. Discounting the greater friction of the significantly greater area of the .45s "cylinder" as the slug slows down, the .45 would have to have 556 FPE to even come close to the penetration of the 9mm. You lose again.
There's a post somewhere on TFL where they were doing actual tests of a .45 and 9mm on toll or parking attendant booths they were manufacturing. The toll booth stopped the .45 while the 9mm went right through.
But let's do a little analysis taking two typical FMJ offerings by Federal in their American Eagle line:
A 124 gr. 9mm has about 345 FPE (Federal AE9AP) and a .45 about 370 FPE (Federal AE45A). However, the frontal cross sectional area of the 9mm bullet is 0.099 square inches and the .45 is 0.159 square inches or 161% of the 9mm's. Discounting the greater friction of the significantly greater area of the .45s "cylinder" as the slug slows down, the .45 would have to have 556 FPE to even come close to the penetration of the 9mm. You lose again.
Energy vs. momentum
I'm not sure what the right answer is, but I do think it's not just an energy equation. Momentum (mass x velocity) is probably a big factor in penetration not just cross section and energy (mass x velocity squared). I guess I'd like to see some of those FBI penetration tests before I coughed up a beer....
I'm not sure what the right answer is, but I do think it's not just an energy equation. Momentum (mass x velocity) is probably a big factor in penetration not just cross section and energy (mass x velocity squared). I guess I'd like to see some of those FBI penetration tests before I coughed up a beer....
Mo_Zam_Beek
New member
We can pretty much agree that the higher velocity smaller diameter 9mm bullet will penetrate further, but is that what you want?
Unlike for hunting when I want complete penetration with an entry and an exit hole, with human targets I would prefer that the bullet expend as much energy into the intended target as possible. That is why JHP's are so effective in both 9mm and .45 calibers. They tend to dump all of the energy into the target.
If you need some deep penetration against hardened targets you need to put down your pistol and pick up your rifle.
Good Shooting
RED
Unlike for hunting when I want complete penetration with an entry and an exit hole, with human targets I would prefer that the bullet expend as much energy into the intended target as possible. That is why JHP's are so effective in both 9mm and .45 calibers. They tend to dump all of the energy into the target.
If you need some deep penetration against hardened targets you need to put down your pistol and pick up your rifle.
Good Shooting
RED
Here's a little useless data...
My informal penetration testing has thus far included only two types of media- wood (beech and pine logs) and metal/ceramic (waffle iron). 9mm FMJ has consistently outpenetrated the .45 ACP FMJ in all of my "tests". 9mm sails right through the waffle iron, .45 gets through the aluminum "skin" and one waffle plate, but is consistently stopped by the second plate, and usually fails to dent the "skin" on the other side. In wood, the 9mm penetrates about 30% more than the .45. In fact, I had to beef up my backstop recently because the 9mm was chewing the daylights out of it. Typical ranges are about 10-25 yards. I side with the other posters in the thread, for the reasons already outlined. BTW, Erwin Rommel was impressed with the 9mm's penetating ability in WW1 as a young officer, relating it in at least one instance to the penetrating power of the 8mm Mauser! (certainly only with respect to "soft" targets).
Yep, that little 9 sure is zippy. I'd think 7.62x25 Tokarev would make an impressive showing, too, but I don't have one of those.
Looks like I'll have to get myself another waffle iron, too
.
vanfunk
My informal penetration testing has thus far included only two types of media- wood (beech and pine logs) and metal/ceramic (waffle iron). 9mm FMJ has consistently outpenetrated the .45 ACP FMJ in all of my "tests". 9mm sails right through the waffle iron, .45 gets through the aluminum "skin" and one waffle plate, but is consistently stopped by the second plate, and usually fails to dent the "skin" on the other side. In wood, the 9mm penetrates about 30% more than the .45. In fact, I had to beef up my backstop recently because the 9mm was chewing the daylights out of it. Typical ranges are about 10-25 yards. I side with the other posters in the thread, for the reasons already outlined. BTW, Erwin Rommel was impressed with the 9mm's penetating ability in WW1 as a young officer, relating it in at least one instance to the penetrating power of the 8mm Mauser! (certainly only with respect to "soft" targets).
Yep, that little 9 sure is zippy. I'd think 7.62x25 Tokarev would make an impressive showing, too, but I don't have one of those.
Looks like I'll have to get myself another waffle iron, too
.vanfunk
vanfunk,
Decades ago, I wondered why the .45 ACP was eschewed by other nations' military establsihments in favor of the 9mm. After all, everybody knew bigger was better!
Luger originally designed his pistols to shoot a 7mm bullet, but increased it to 9mm because military honchos wanted "bigger" since that was obviously(!) better. Nevertheless, the 9mm prevailed in most other military establishments except ours.
You've proven that using a waffle iron for cover might be a good idea provided the BG is using a .45, but if he has a pocket 9mm it's a bad move. Did you do any WI penetration tests using JHPs?
Decades ago, I wondered why the .45 ACP was eschewed by other nations' military establsihments in favor of the 9mm. After all, everybody knew bigger was better!
Luger originally designed his pistols to shoot a 7mm bullet, but increased it to 9mm because military honchos wanted "bigger" since that was obviously(!) better. Nevertheless, the 9mm prevailed in most other military establishments except ours.
You've proven that using a waffle iron for cover might be a good idea provided the BG is using a .45, but if he has a pocket 9mm it's a bad move. Did you do any WI penetration tests using JHPs?
Mike Irwin
Staff
Higher velocity and smaller frontal area favors the 9mm, I think.
Blackhawk,
Actually, the German military wanted a more powerful round, and the easiest way for Luger to do that was to increase the bullet weight by increasing its diameter.
Blackhawk,
Actually, the German military wanted a more powerful round, and the easiest way for Luger to do that was to increase the bullet weight by increasing its diameter.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Redlg155, it does not matter whether they wanted more or less penetration. It was just a bet on whether .45 or 9 mm would penetrate more deeply with no consideration to tactics or other defensive capabilities.
Mo_Zam_Beek
New member
Well if anyone had bothered to look at the link that I provided the difference is in penitration is about 1".
The 9mm was about 70cm and the .45 is 65cm.
FBI testing post miami shoot out wanted to see penitration of 9" - 12" inches (if I remember correctly) both meet this standard.
More importantly the wound channel is substantially greater with a .45.
As others have pointed out - shoot placement is far more important.
The 9mm was about 70cm and the .45 is 65cm.
FBI testing post miami shoot out wanted to see penitration of 9" - 12" inches (if I remember correctly) both meet this standard.
More importantly the wound channel is substantially greater with a .45.
As others have pointed out - shoot placement is far more important.
The reason the .45 is the weapon of choice is the fact that there's more mass (230 gr. v. 147 gr.) and there is more breadth. Thus, the .45 will 'knock down' a target more easily than a 9mm. Would you rather get hit in the solar plexus with a fist or a couple of fingers (pointed)?
With decent shot placement, it's a moot point. One in the face, no matter what caliber ( a .22 is good enough) will stop or kill most any human assailant. With police, however, shot placement is not a sure thing--there's darkness, running around, general commotion, and poor training all in the mix. Thus, they are slowly moving toward the 'bigger is better' school of thought--ergo the .40 and .45's.
With decent shot placement, it's a moot point. One in the face, no matter what caliber ( a .22 is good enough) will stop or kill most any human assailant. With police, however, shot placement is not a sure thing--there's darkness, running around, general commotion, and poor training all in the mix. Thus, they are slowly moving toward the 'bigger is better' school of thought--ergo the .40 and .45's.
The question was just a penetration comparison, but:
I believe that the .45 earned its place on the roster in the Philippines. The Huks (sp) we were fighting got high before going into battle, and just putting a few holes in them didn't even slow them down much, and they probably didn't even know or care that they were hit. The .45 in COM would knock them down, backwards in fact, and their CV system was done, and so were they -- never to get up again.
I wouldn't be surprised if Browning got a request for something that would put anybody down in close quarters combat, and he came up with the .45. That was its intended purpose, and it's performed it admirably for over a century.
I would rather have a .45 in a dependable, designed from the ground up for the .45 cartridge, small CCW than a 9mm, but such a critter doesn't exist, IMO. Yes, I know about the Taurus PT-145, but it's a rechambered .40 S&W, itself a rechambered 9mm. Until then, I'd rather have a 10+1 9mm that stays together like a Kel-Tec P11.
I believe that the .45 earned its place on the roster in the Philippines. The Huks (sp) we were fighting got high before going into battle, and just putting a few holes in them didn't even slow them down much, and they probably didn't even know or care that they were hit. The .45 in COM would knock them down, backwards in fact, and their CV system was done, and so were they -- never to get up again.
I wouldn't be surprised if Browning got a request for something that would put anybody down in close quarters combat, and he came up with the .45. That was its intended purpose, and it's performed it admirably for over a century.
I would rather have a .45 in a dependable, designed from the ground up for the .45 cartridge, small CCW than a 9mm, but such a critter doesn't exist, IMO. Yes, I know about the Taurus PT-145, but it's a rechambered .40 S&W, itself a rechambered 9mm. Until then, I'd rather have a 10+1 9mm that stays together like a Kel-Tec P11.
I don't have the info on the popular 124gr 9mm FMJ (NATO specs), but I do remember a couple interesting facts from reading Marshal and Sanow's
'Street Stoppers' .
The 115gr 9mm FMJ will penetrate 24 inches of ballistic gelatin.
The 230gr .45acp FMJ will penetrate 27 inches of ballistic gelatin.
Of course, this doesn't include bones and intermediate barriers, but I'd say either one is a sure "through and through" on any typical sized individual.
I get a kick out of folk saying they choose the .45acp since it isn't as likely to over-penetrate.
Some 185gr .45acp offering (I.E. WW Silvertips) are indeed intended for reduced penetration, but then again, so are some 115gr 9mm loads (I.E. WW Silvertips).
JHP's to JHP's, both calibers generally penetrate the same, one just leaving a bigger hole while doing it.
As for the 124gr FMJ loaded to NATO specs, I would venture to say they indeed do penetrate in excess of 27". But I would also say 27" is pretty damn deep.
'Street Stoppers' .
The 115gr 9mm FMJ will penetrate 24 inches of ballistic gelatin.
The 230gr .45acp FMJ will penetrate 27 inches of ballistic gelatin.
Of course, this doesn't include bones and intermediate barriers, but I'd say either one is a sure "through and through" on any typical sized individual.
I get a kick out of folk saying they choose the .45acp since it isn't as likely to over-penetrate.
Some 185gr .45acp offering (I.E. WW Silvertips) are indeed intended for reduced penetration, but then again, so are some 115gr 9mm loads (I.E. WW Silvertips).
JHP's to JHP's, both calibers generally penetrate the same, one just leaving a bigger hole while doing it.
As for the 124gr FMJ loaded to NATO specs, I would venture to say they indeed do penetrate in excess of 27". But I would also say 27" is pretty damn deep.