Penetrating Dumpsters, Car Doors, ect

Cover vs. Concealment

Cover is the natural thing to think about in this situation. It's the point my mind used to naturally gravitate towards paying attention to. I'd enter a situation and immediately check cover.

Until I paid for some private professional firearms training. An ex-cop trainer, nothing sexy, but all very practical and real world stuff. One of the things that most stuck out in my mind after all that is how important concealment is. There are plenty of places to be that will not stop a bullet, but you cannot see me to hit me and I can still see YOU and shoot YOU. These are most important when I'm the aggressor and you don't even know I'm there, but even if you know I exist, if I'm behind a 30' row of thick hedges with a gun, and you're under the light in the middle of a parking lot, guess what, you're screwed!

The dumpster situation is terrifying for that precise reason. There are little nooks and holes in those things that someone could see from and shoot, meanwhile, I can't necessarily hit back.

So in this situation, my choice would be to ring the dumpster, shoot one where they'd just jumped in, and run like hell for safety.

--JP
 
BG in the dumpster...

Just call the trash company and have the BG hauled off to the dump where he belongs...BTW, make sure the compactor is utilized.
 
Ok, I have a way to defeat the dumpsters!

We need OC grenades!

Yes pepper bombs! Can you imagine a OC grenade going off in a closed dumpster? Kind of tough for them to sit there! And you can always pop smoke to blind them while you sneek up to drop the OC grenade in their laps.

Deaf
 
If you are shooting through a dumpster or other barrier, then I think you need to re-evaluate if this situation is truly "self-defense". If someone is behind cover and you can't see them, then how do you know there is a "clear and present danger"? I think we should articulate further the exact scenarios in which we feel the need to shoot someone through a barrier.

If we were soldiers during war-time, then that is a different scenario. If someone with a drawn pistol suddenly decided to retreat and duck behind a dumpster, would you be justified to fire at them through that dumpster?

I think one can get into a lot of hot water with the justice system unless they approach this scenario very carefully. If someone is resting behind a dumpster and is not pointing a weapon at someone else, then there is no clear or present danger. In any event, you will have to justify your logic to a judge or jury or at the very least a grand jury...just something to think about when considering if you should shoot through objects.
 
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I think the presumption is that you have been already engaged by the dumpster dude who is still in the fight.

No one is suggesting you just plink a dumpster with a 50 BMG to see what's behind it. :rolleyes:
 
dumpsters cannot be penetrated by the avg caliber. shotgun, 9mm,45acp. im talking about the bfi dumpster. iv known people who shot at them and it easily withstood the force.
 
On topic

The thing about it is that I know if I use deadly force against someone, I'm probably in some legal hot water. So I will be absolutely certain its self-defense.

But here's a situation I ran into in real life.

Presumed BG opening basement garage door at 2AM, making a lot of racket. I lived way out in the country at the time. I grab my 12 gauge and head downstairs. I'm thinking it's B&E and the guy isn't wanting a gunfight, so I arm the second and third occupant of the house (who had also heard the noise) with my .38 and .357. We exit tactically and quickly, all covered quite well. I rack the shotgun to scare the merde out of the guy (remember, the last thing I want is to SHOOT anyone!)

Now, we never encountered him. I'm thinking he realized he was making a ton of noise and cleared the scene as I was arming my compatriots and heading down the stairs.

But what kept me awake all night was the fact that I paid attention to cover rather than concealment. If he HAD been armed and willing to fight for some crazy reason (seriously, there are bad people out there that don't even know what happens when you shoot an animal with a gun), he could have easily hit me from the bushes. I paid attention to the cars, the berm, and the workshop, but I missed the bushes until precious seconds had rolled by.

Now.... if someone was back there, aggressive, and they didn't neutralize QUICKLY, I'm going to have to assume they might be the kind of crazy who would try to do major harm to me or my house-mates..... the situation would probably precipitate badly for them from that point forward. And I am trained enough in criminal law (not a lawyer, don't ask) to know just how much of a sticky wicket years of legal hassle can be....

but it's better than getting shot!

So yeah, I mean.... you don't start punching people in the throat, slicing them with your knife, or shooting them unless you're totally sure they're hostile AND dangerous. Everything else calls for humility, talk, and/or rapid exits. However, the situations in which that occurs aren't always justifiable to a jury -- and they are myriad in the real world. In the real-world I'm thinking about keeping alive and safe, period.

--Dr. Funkenstein

PS: I also understand the question here of staying in the house in cover and waiting for BG versus rushing him. I made the assumption then and there that he probably didn't want trouble and pushing it to him (or them) was best. Perhaps that wasn't the best decision.... it is somewhat reflective of one's mentality in a combat situation. Martial artists and trained shooters are going to get screwed by the legal system in the U.S.A. anyways. So I just deal with that and make the best decision I know in the current situation, based on my current training and mindset. Hopefully I live and learn. I did that day. But you know, I'm just some crazy guy on the net. Currently I don't even live in the states (three flags, man). Personally I would not listen to anything I say!
 
I think it is a mistake to create a scenario where you are either unloading a loaded gun during a gunfight to swap ammo or making ammo decisions when a reload under fire is required. I think the foregoing is especially true when one is carrying a revolver, no offense wheel guys.

If you really, really, really want to have an alternate ammo available for shooting through cover, carry a BUG loaded as you see fit. Much easier to conduct a "New York reload."
 
MP9

I don't even want to know what that stupid radio controlled bullet thing cost to develop or the cost per unit or the ammo itself. :D

I tried several things to penetrate a dumpster, why bother? Guy's in a dumpster it's time to leave. I don't know... you are working it too hard as far as what you are worrying about.
 
Penetrating cover is a legitimate concern as I can think of at least two instances in which you would be justified in shooting someone through something:

Scenario 1: BG has entered your home. You've corralled yourself and any loved ones into a safe room and the BG is now actively attempting to kick in the door. You've announced that he may take anything he likes outside that room, but that the police have been called and that you are armed and will shoot him if he continues his current course of action. BG continues to try and kick the door in. At this point, I think you'd probably be justified in sending a round through the door because A) there is an immediate threat and B) you know that there are no innocent bystanders in your line of fire.

Scenario 2: You are accosted while in your vehicle in the middle of rush hour. You're in stopped bumper-to-bumper traffic and cannot escape. The BG is actively trying to pry your door open and/or break out your window. At this point, I think you'd be justified in sending a round through the car door.
 
See boxoftruth.com, rifles have no trouble doing a through and through of a car. I think they used a Buick. 45 acp and 9mm can almost penetrate both sides of a car.

I agree with leave if BG is hiding in dumpster.

Many states, east and west coasts, have Castle doctrines. I don't think it would matter where the BG was hiding if he was within the curtilage of one's dwelling.

"The area, usually enclosed, encompassing the grounds and buildings immediately surrounding a home that is used in the daily activities of domestic life.

A garage, barn, smokehouse, chicken house, and garden are curtilage if their locations are reasonably near to the home. The determination of what constitutes curtilage is important for purposes of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures of a person and of his or her home or property. Courts have construed the word home to include curtilage so that a person is protected against unlawful searches and seizures of his or her curtilage." http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/curtilage

What I am trying to say is, I think my refrigerator is within my curtilage. :p
 
Seems like this question of penetration through cover just keeps coming up, and everybody has a story about what they shot in their backyard, or vaguely recalls some "tests" they saw on YouTube.

I submit for your review, Internet Sheepdogs, an informal 2005 study by the DEA NY Firearms Unit. Bottom line, cars are not good cover.

http://www.anret.org/Downloads/ballistics.pdf

Highlights for those who don't like to read:

-> "..with the exception of buckshot, almost all of the rounds fired..did penetrate and strike the targets inside of the test vehicle."
-> "..the car door did not reliably stop any pistol ammunition and it did not stop any of the rifle ammunition."
-> "Pistol ammunition penetrated both sides of the trunk and the target."

Don't quote me on this, but from a quick search, roll-off dumpsters have wall thickness (in the areas that aren't reinforced) between 3 and 5 millimeters. I'm not sure of the material, I would guess mild steel in most cases, perhaps some are low-grade aluminum.


Also, some food for thought. You've been attacked, and now you're in a gunfight. The violent hoodlum thug, hopped-up on drugs with his sideways Gat and Sox hat to match, gets behind some sort of cover and you, the responsible, mindful, safety-first, internet-reading, Gunsite/Frontsight/Magpul Dynamics trained, law-abiding NRA-supporting gun owner are out in the open, holding your meticulously cleaned and maintained pistol, considering which round to shove into your reload. Something ain't right if you got yourself in that deep.
 
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Webleymkv

You aren't thinking your scenarios through very well.

Guy is trying to get into your car, I'm pretty sure all you have to do is show him a gun and his desire to get into the car with you won't be nearly as strong as he originally thought it was. :D

Catch my drift? Why would you want to send a round through the door when all you can see is his backside beating feet? Mission accomplished without having to fire a single shot.
 
Now This Is A Funny Dumpster Situation

Okay, this is an example of who's hiding in a dumpster not being a problem among other examples.

I had a car parked by my business building in an industrial area, and the wheels got ripped off. I come into work and it's on junk rims with the wheels gone.

Well this has me a bit PO'd, so I replace the BBS wheels and leave it for bait figuring those who got my first ones wouldn't be able to resist another set. I'm sleeping on the couch in my office, sleeping light when I hear a noise. I come running out the side door and hear the dumpster lid bang closed and figure I have my thieves dead to rights.

I'm crouched in my best battle stance with a Python pointed at the dumpster and I yell out "come out of that dumpster, NOW". The lid opens and this poor little completely scared senseless guy pokes his head out with his arms up.

I can still hear his terrified voice saying, "don't shoot me, I'm just a poor dumpster diver looking for cans".

I sheepishly told him I'm not going to shoot you for stealing cans, as you were, there's a lot of cans in there. I had about 60 employees so that dumpster always had a lot of soda cans in it.

The moral of that story is that it's awfully easy to start projecting your defense situations where they aren't warranted. I gotta admit to feeling incredibly stupid.

No preaching needed here, I'm pretty much aware of all the things wrong with what I was doing, including the baiting of thieves. I did learn lessons as I went along.
 
I have only had my permit 2 years and have never had to pull my weapon(Glock 21 SF) on anyone, thank God. But I was taught in the handgun carry permit course that one was only allowed to pull your weapon and fire it at a person 'if you feel your life is being threatened'. How threatened would I feel by a guy who dives into a dumpster when I pull my gun? I agree with leaving the scene and calling 911 when given the opportunity to do so. The threat is no longer there, I have ample time to move out of his line of sight, and am equipped with a cell phone to call trained professionals who will give this man a fresh pair of bracelets and a place to stay for a couple of years while he ponders his error in judgment. Why would I stick around and exchange needless fire, with a chance of shooting an innocent passerby, when I can simply defuse the situation with a few quick steps to one side or the other?

Most importantly, I would try to keep some view of his whereabouts to assist the authorities when they arrive. I wouldn't just turn a blind eye to the problem of this man running around the neighborhood with a gun and bad intentions.
 
Unlike the police who may need to capture and detain a person, that is not a real part of CCW.

Our only task is to save ourselves from death (or grave harm) and possibly loved ones.

If the perpetrator chooses to exit at the display of a firearm you are not going to get away with claiming he was still a threat.

Chasing him down is NOT a good idea.
 
Arent most dumpsters on wheels? :) I drive a truck, bet I could get a dumpster up to 50 or so MPH :) then slow and watch the fun times....
 
I would break left or right and run away with the following notes. If at the end of an alley I came into by mistake!, I do a 180 and get out of Dodge after firing 3-10 rounds into the top of the dumpster. Noise can cover your fleeting moments...
 
Arent most dumpsters on wheels?
Click to expand...

Smaller dumpsters may be on wheels, but larger ones (and roll-offs) or normally on skid plates (at best).

If the perp dives into one and takes himself out of the fight, the fight is OVER (unless he continues firing at you).
 
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