Paul Gomez on 9mm vs .45

So by his logic the 9mm is the better choice for grizzly bear defense because it holds more bullets than a 500 magnum?
 
Did'nt realize he was talking about bear's,guess I should read better before I assume he trains for sd against two legged critters.
 
I don't think the FBI tests were really all that concerned with violent Federal crimes committed by bears. I think those tests were done by the Park Rangers. :D

I think what the video is discussing is the fact that most encounters with humans can be put into training box X.

At the end of the day humans are tough creatures and we take massive damage all the time and survive through violence or otherwise. Its a crap shoot in some cases.

I have traditionally been a .45 / .357 maggie guy at heart but the more I learn, research etc. modern ammo in handguns is reasonably similar and like the video says mostly sucks. More rounds on target seems to be the better strategy vs. fewer yet marginally larger rounds.

Again. I am low speed high drag with no illusions, desires, wants, dreams etc. of wanting to ever visit any kind of violence on anybody. I am a lets have a few beers, get drunk fall down and work it out kind of guy. So I don't know jack, nor do I want to KNOW jack about this. But like I said from my point of view I am starting to see logic behind lots of +P smaller rounds vice fewer larger rounds.

Now those damn bears.............I have my own strategy. I call it scream like a little girl and run away like Brave Sir Robin.
 
Oh great...another proponent of the "spray and pray" philosophy. Jeff Cooper has got to be rolling over in his grave. Doesn't marksmanship count any more? High capacity mags are appropriate for LEOs but I don't know that it's a must for home defense. I've not heard of a homeowner having to empty a 17-round clip into an intruder.
 
I don't know if its as much spray and pray as much as it is more incapacitating lead on target.

For example. One round of 230 grain .45 may do more damage then a single round of 147 grain 9mm. Physics is physics. That being said assuming either of those doesn't shut down the 'puter so to speak then they both just punch holes.

Putting 2 rounds of 147 gain 9mm in said target both puts lots more lead then that one 230 grain round and raises the statistical chances of putting one in the bread basket.

At the end of the day I don't worry too much about it. Have a gun, know how to use it. Caliber seems to be mostly way down on the list of requirements.

Hell if I carry its not uncommon that I only have 5 rounds so I certainly am not a carry two boxes of ammo around kind of guy. :D
 
dabluesguy, shooting until threat ceases is not spray and pray.

You can get multiple A zone hits and still have an active attacker. Even a heart shot can leave the BG functional for many seconds. Unless your marksmanship is such that you can reliably score CNS hits, under duress, against a moving target, then you are really relying on a psychological and not a physiological stop.

As Paul Gomez stated, that means you are leaving things up to the BG.
 
I like Paul and I listened. But I don't think I heard anything conclusive. I saw two graphics wiz by so quickly I couldn't read them. Then I heard a big hole is better than a small one and more bullets are better than fewer.

I don't think I heard any thing that advanced a caliber argument. And frankly I didn't learn anything new. What I think, or perhaps I should say assume, is this educational video is geared more towards the less experienced. In which case it would be beneficial.

This is just an opinion. I could be missing the point altogether. I know Paul is a great teacher and a knowledgeable guy.
 
I didn't watch it (can't at work) but I don't need to to know he didn't come up with anything new in this 100 year old debate.
The one thing that seems certain to me, is if you think either caliber or capacity is going to give you an edge when the gunfight happens your probably wrong.
 
I know of two cases where a 9mm (high capacity) took down grizzly bears.

Its not intuitive but it also makes the point. You have to look at real world data. Real world data says a 9mm is as lethal as anything up through 45 pistol rounds.

Also, while caliber does not change the odds in a gun fight, capacity can.

Its how you use it that counts. a 45 is not more lethal than a 9mm, but a well shot 45 is better than a badly shot 9mm regardless of rounds.

I know of a gun fight that a guy took 3 rounds of 44, however, he had a high capacity 45 semi auto and it took all of them to take the other guy down (but down he went and the guy with 3 rounds of 44 survived). So, yes rounds can count, but only if they hit what you are shooting at.

Having a high capacity gun means you do not have to worry about reloading (carrying a spare magazine is another issue but I believe that's only an LEO issue, I do not, if my 16 rounds is not enough nothing probably is, otherwise I would be runnign around in an Abrams tank as that is the only sure fire solution)
 
Or you keep shooting until the threat is gone (stopped etc)

That aside there is a new movement for hard cast bullets being the best to get penetration and deal with dangerous game.

From what I have seen its solidly proven.

We think we have it understood and there is a lot out there to be learned yet
 
I know Paul and trained with him as well as listening to him present.

He is not a spray and pray advocate - if you actually paid attention. Also, Cooper is not God (horrors) and we don't know how he would feel about modern ammo unless you have a Ouija board.

So, how about we skip the silly humor attempts and cliches?

Shooting until the threat ceases is pretty standard training doctrine. Or you can just shoot a couple of shots and go over to the guy with a cup of tea to see if he is still a threat.
 
I for one, don't measure the size of the "hole" a bullet makes. As long as the round hits critical organs (heart, brain, etc).

There is always the possibilty of multiple badguys -- burglars and gangs usually work in groups. So extra capacity is always a plus. If you think 17rds is overrated...
 
Or you can just shoot a couple of shots and go over to the guy with a cup of tea to see if he is still a threat.
Click to expand...

Or you can take statistical 'shots fired' from real encounters, and use your own discernment and judgment of what is 'best' for you to carry in an SD/HD situation...

I was not under the impression that the thread was about people that 'expect' to be in a fire fight such as LEO, 'security', or 'armed guards'...

In those 'expected' instances, I fully agree that 'more' is better...
 
How large a bullet is not nearly as important as where you put it. A "one shot stop" is not decided by the ammo, it is decided by instantaneous destruction of the main central nervous system or the brain.
 
...Manson... . I saw two graphics wiz by so quickly I couldn't read them.
Click to expand...
you could double click or hit the 'pause' button on the video to have it stop and see the charts in detail.

Looks like Gomez is saying that
a) majority of the modern self-defense ammo from a reputable manufacture is designed for exact same penetration result (including the limit )

b) that ammunition when expanded is very similar in diameter

c) since penetration and diameter are very similar -- he recommends to go with the one that you can cary 'more of'.
Therefore 9mm in a double stack cary gun
 
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