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In regard to pointing real (unloaded) guns at others during training: IMO it's a necessary evil to overcome the psychological reluctance to point a gun at anybody, even a bad guy, and especially a bad guy who doesn't "fit" your image of what a bad guy should be (the recent Tacoma Mall shooting comes to mind). Everyone involved has given their consent to train this close to the edge.

Same thing with having a real (unloaded) gun pointed at you during training. IMO one has to learn to recognize threat cues and to act effectively under danger of lethal injury when staring down the muzzle of an actual firearm.

Red guns are okay for many training scenarios. However in others there's no substitute for the real thing.

Others may disagree, and that's okay with me. Just my personal training and mindset philosophy.
 
About the whole "pointing guns at each other" bit - I would have to say that at some level you have to be comfortable that your partner is not going to shoot you. Seriously - in a room full of trained professionals - if everyone shows an empty chamber to at least two people then what are you really afraid of??
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pickpocket, more than a few trained professionals have died this way. It happens just about every year and there is absolutely no reason for it to happen.

The same training can and should be done without real guns.
Red guns are okay for many training scenarios. However in others there's no substitute for the real thing.
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I must respectfully disagree. Airsoft guns can do the same thing more effectively and more safely than a real gun.
 
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pickpocket, more than a few trained professionals have died this way. It happens just about every year and there is absolutely no reason for it to happen.
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I don't disagree. However, this comes back to professionalism and trust. Every situation that someone can dig up where someone has died can be traced back to negligence....which comes full circle to lack of professionalism or lack of training.

My honest opinion is that this is a case where we choose not to hold the INDIVIDUAL responsible for their actions. Rather than force people to accept responsibility that their lack of regard for safety may end the life of another human, we simply remove the possibility by limiting the use of equipment. You can't be trusted, so we'll just hold your hand and make you safe. I feel that when we're talking about advanced levels of training that this is a luxury that we cannot afford. It's fine for the uninitiated, but we really should expect more our of our trained professionals.
To expect someone to carry a gun all day and be responsible for their actions yet make that responsibility a non-issue during training is simply backwards to me.

Please understand, I'm not advocating unsafe range practices...quite the contrary...a large part of my training focuses on responsible and safe practices. I just feel that we overcompensate sometimes.

Stay safe -
 
pickpocket:

One of the fundamental rules of gun safety is expressed two different ways. I'm an NRA instructor, so the NRA wording is most familiar to me: "Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction." I don't care how "professional" someone is. I'm not a safe direction. My training partner is not a safe direction. The NRA safety rule does not read "Always keep a loaded gun pointed in a safe direction." Just because a gun is unloaded doesn't mean you can point it in an unsafe direction.

Jeff Cooper uses a slightly different wording for the same idea: "Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy." I am not willing to destroy training partner. He or she better not be willing to destroy me.

Please understand, I'm not advocating unsafe range practices...quite the contrary...a large part of my training focuses on responsible and safe practices.
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Either we disagree or I am misunderstanding you. If you are suggesting that it is ok in training to use unloaded real guns and point them at each other (even after checking them), then I believe you are indeed advocating an unsafe range practice.

People make mistakes. Even professional people make mistakes. If your training involves pointing real guns at people, then a single mistake can take someones life. This has happened in the past and will continue to happen in the future. Even to "professionals." Because people mess up. Yes, you can hold that person accountable for messing up, but that's going to be cold comfort for the widow.

And the thing is, there's no need to take that risk. You can achieve the same quality of training with airsoft or dedicated simunition guns.
 
If you are suggesting that it is ok in training to use unloaded real guns and point them at each other (even after checking them), then I believe you are indeed advocating an unsafe range practice.
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I have to disagree with this statement as well. This type of training is very common in the military, as well as LE. My team constantly uses our real weapons with safety checks along the way, including yellow tape in the receivers.
Red guns do not give you the feel of your particular weapon, how you have your weapon set up (i.e. lights, vert grips, short stocks, sling types, optics/aimpoints, etc). In order for weapon manipulation, transitions and using the add-ons on your weapon to be 2nd nature, you need to practice with them. A red gun does not provide you this training and confidence.
Safety is ALWAYS 1st. As long as live ammo is not in the training area, and checked (at least 2x, to include visible tapes), this trainng can be done very safely.
If it is not comfortable for you, that does not mean it is unsafe.
 
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