Patch holder stuck in muzzleloader barrel
- Thread starter BlackPowderBen
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I take it that 44 Dave likes the sofa?
I'd try to get it screwed onto the ramrod.
Next I'll try a c02 discharger. Be sure you have the barrel pointed to a box (outside) that has some old phone books.
Failing that, put some powder down it and try to blow it out. Muzzle control, box with old phone books to catch it.
The last thing I'd do is to pull the breech plug.
I'd try to get it screwed onto the ramrod.
Next I'll try a c02 discharger. Be sure you have the barrel pointed to a box (outside) that has some old phone books.
Failing that, put some powder down it and try to blow it out. Muzzle control, box with old phone books to catch it.
The last thing I'd do is to pull the breech plug.
Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
My best advice. Consider taking to a store front gunsmith.
They have secret ways of getting stuck things un-stuck without pulling breech plugs. Your tinkering with may or may not inhibit its removal. Honestly I think such scenarios as this are best left to the professionally trained to resolve.
They have secret ways of getting stuck things un-stuck without pulling breech plugs. Your tinkering with may or may not inhibit its removal. Honestly I think such scenarios as this are best left to the professionally trained to resolve.
Ok real quick as I have to run but its fairly simple
Use a patch worm as a previous poster mentioned .
A patch worm is like a spring that will wrap around the thing you stuck down there .
You can make its any size you need . So it will just twist around the part.
The other thing you can do is get a brass tube that’s just under bore size . Glue it to a dowel and slide it down the bore . It will capture your what ever , inside of the tube
Breech plugs .
All breech plugs are made to be removed . Traditional ones, just not as fast as many of the modern inlines .
IF you have never removed one you should not attempt to remove a breech as you may damage your rifle . As was said by Hawg , they can be rather hard to come out when it come to production guns . In some cases there are other parts that must come off first .
Use a patch worm as a previous poster mentioned .
A patch worm is like a spring that will wrap around the thing you stuck down there .
You can make its any size you need . So it will just twist around the part.
The other thing you can do is get a brass tube that’s just under bore size . Glue it to a dowel and slide it down the bore . It will capture your what ever , inside of the tube
Breech plugs .
All breech plugs are made to be removed . Traditional ones, just not as fast as many of the modern inlines .
IF you have never removed one you should not attempt to remove a breech as you may damage your rifle . As was said by Hawg , they can be rather hard to come out when it come to production guns . In some cases there are other parts that must come off first .
It's NOT a big deal. It threads out, and threads back in. If you don't know what you're doing or never done it before then don't do it. You just have to know the tricks to getting it to free up with out harming the barrel or the tang. For someone who's done it before (ME) it's not a problem. There are correct tools for it, there are definitely do's and dont't's but it's not a big deal to someone with experience in it.
Un-breeching a TC Hawken is not a simple task. TC crush fit their breech plugs and to remove one you need either a barrel vise and really stout bench or a really heavy vice and stout bench. You also need a devise that TC used to sell specifically for the purpose sort of a mini action wrench. It had a cutout of the breechplug in a square block of hardened steel and slid over the plug and you put the wrench on it. You also need a long handled wrench and some muscle.
Anything less than above and you stand a really good chance of seriously damaging the rifle.
Anything less than above and you stand a really good chance of seriously damaging the rifle.
BlackPowderBen
New member
Your call !!!
Folks, it's a crap-shoot on removing sidelock breech-plugs and even some MML's can be a challenge. Even if you are lucky enough to remove one, you will still mar the metal, to a certain degree. .....
Be Safe !!!
You might be surprised at the lack of experience, most GunSmiths have when they encounter a sidelock. The first thing they want to do, is unthread the breech-plug, when in reality, it should be your last option I have had two calls from Smith/Dealers, on problems like this and to date, I have only removed "one" breech-plug and that was on a fairly new barrel. I have seen too many bad results of botched attempts at removing a breech-plug. I recall a CVA-Bobcat whose hooked breech that I call a nub, twisted right off and no longer able to seat into the tang. .....
Folks, it's a crap-shoot on removing sidelock breech-plugs and even some MML's can be a challenge. Even if you are lucky enough to remove one, you will still mar the metal, to a certain degree. .....
Be Safe !!!
foolzrushn
New member
I don't see how a patch holder and adapter would be stuck very tight. I'll bet they don't fill the bore enough to shoot out. I think 44 Dave's melting method would work, but it's messy.
You should get a worm...you will probably need it again. But be sure what threads you have on your rod.
I would try to fish it out with a long piece of mechanics wire. Make a small hook bend on the end, try to slide it past the adapter and gently turn and pull until you catch something. If you prefer, you could solder some brass brazing rods together and do the same thing.
Keep fishing while you watch TV. You will catch something. Slow and easy...as has been said.
You should get a worm...you will probably need it again. But be sure what threads you have on your rod.
I would try to fish it out with a long piece of mechanics wire. Make a small hook bend on the end, try to slide it past the adapter and gently turn and pull until you catch something. If you prefer, you could solder some brass brazing rods together and do the same thing.
Keep fishing while you watch TV. You will catch something. Slow and easy...as has been said.
Truth be told. I ran an oiled patch down the barrel of a CVA pistol on the wooden ramrod jag, should have used the range rod that was in the truck, and the brass end came off. After trying 100 psi compressed air and a few other things I heated the barrel gently until the patch burned up, but being a pistol I could heat evenly to 500 degrees or so, and let it cool slowly.
Would maybe have tried to get powder in it and shoot it out if I did not want to save the end, and was having trouble with the "flinch lock" and was about to give the thing a toss any way!
Would maybe have tried to get powder in it and shoot it out if I did not want to save the end, and was having trouble with the "flinch lock" and was about to give the thing a toss any way!
A time and place !!!
Ya just can't beat the looks of a Hickory RamRod, on a traditional. However, they do have their weaknesses when you get away from loading and wet patching. Once you start twisting and working them, they start to stress. For hunting with sidelocks, I have a replacement "Delrin" rod and a T-handle, in my bag. For bench work, I have a special Range-Rod with bore guide. ..
Ben,
Can't with for you to get that booger out of there. !!!
Good Luck and;
Be Safe !!!
Ya just can't beat the looks of a Hickory RamRod, on a traditional. However, they do have their weaknesses when you get away from loading and wet patching. Once you start twisting and working them, they start to stress. For hunting with sidelocks, I have a replacement "Delrin" rod and a T-handle, in my bag. For bench work, I have a special Range-Rod with bore guide. ..
Ben,
Can't with for you to get that booger out of there. !!!
Good Luck and;
Be Safe !!!
In order to get it stuck , it would seem to me that he either had a very large amount of patch material or he got it stuck in the TC improved breech . In either case a patch worm should simply twist around or though it and allow you to pull it out . It should be noted that its not really called a patch worm but a Tow worm.
A whole lot of gunsmiths know very little to nothing about muzzleloaders . The reason is they are not really gunsmiths in the since of the word . IE if the part doesn’t unscrew un pin and a new one available to order , then they cant fix the gun .. Thus the first thing they want to do is pull the breech .
Very seldom should one have to do that .
Production companies like Lyman , TC , Adesa who makes traditions and Jukar who made early CVA all have one thing in common . They use machines to set the breech instead of facing the breech to a perfect fit .
On top of that they often do things in ways that if you don’t know what your looking for you will damage or destroy the barrel .
Case in point Adesa depending on the model of rifle , will hide a small set screw that locks the breech . It must be drilled or it will d destroy the threads of the breech .
Both Adesa and Jukar use improve breech designs that the drum bolsters thread into . So if you do not pull the bolster or in cases as with flintlocks , the liner, you will damage the breech and destroy the barrel.
So once you do get those out , then your dealing with trying to get the slightly stretched threads to move . If you do get them to move you have to be careful as you can still damage the threads if they were stretch to far during installationor by the drilling and threading of the bolster or liner into the plug . This is why so many hooked breech CVA have their hooks broken off .
Again breech plugs will come out . They however are not designed to be removed all the time . Myself I do not think you need to remove the breech . There are just so many other options before you even get close to thinking about doing that. I cant tell you the number of times people have brought in rifles or pistols where the nice octagons all screwed up because some wrench monkey got a hold of it first
A whole lot of gunsmiths know very little to nothing about muzzleloaders . The reason is they are not really gunsmiths in the since of the word . IE if the part doesn’t unscrew un pin and a new one available to order , then they cant fix the gun .. Thus the first thing they want to do is pull the breech .
Very seldom should one have to do that .
Production companies like Lyman , TC , Adesa who makes traditions and Jukar who made early CVA all have one thing in common . They use machines to set the breech instead of facing the breech to a perfect fit .
On top of that they often do things in ways that if you don’t know what your looking for you will damage or destroy the barrel .
Case in point Adesa depending on the model of rifle , will hide a small set screw that locks the breech . It must be drilled or it will d destroy the threads of the breech .
Both Adesa and Jukar use improve breech designs that the drum bolsters thread into . So if you do not pull the bolster or in cases as with flintlocks , the liner, you will damage the breech and destroy the barrel.
So once you do get those out , then your dealing with trying to get the slightly stretched threads to move . If you do get them to move you have to be careful as you can still damage the threads if they were stretch to far during installationor by the drilling and threading of the bolster or liner into the plug . This is why so many hooked breech CVA have their hooks broken off .
Again breech plugs will come out . They however are not designed to be removed all the time . Myself I do not think you need to remove the breech . There are just so many other options before you even get close to thinking about doing that. I cant tell you the number of times people have brought in rifles or pistols where the nice octagons all screwed up because some wrench monkey got a hold of it first
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the tang and bolster are always 2 different things .
on rifles like CVA you have a drum bolster on the side of the barrel . this holds the nipple . however the breech plug is still of whats called an improved or patent design .
this can have a hook breech which would mean the tang is separate and the barrel hooks into it OR it can be part of the breech which means the back tang screw must be removed to get the barrel out
with rifles like TC or Lyman , they you have snail breech of an improved or patent design. in which case the bolster is part of the breech itself . These may also be hooked designs or they may not be
on rifles like CVA you have a drum bolster on the side of the barrel . this holds the nipple . however the breech plug is still of whats called an improved or patent design .
this can have a hook breech which would mean the tang is separate and the barrel hooks into it OR it can be part of the breech which means the back tang screw must be removed to get the barrel out
with rifles like TC or Lyman , they you have snail breech of an improved or patent design. in which case the bolster is part of the breech itself . These may also be hooked designs or they may not be
DD4lifeusmc
New member
on most CVA sidelock percussions the nipple screws into the side of the breech plug. So if you remove the breech, you must align the holes exactly when you reninstall
BlackPowderBen
New member
Got it out! Put 3f goex thru the nipple slot, packed in with a nail screwed the nipple back on a shot it out.
Thanks all for the help!!
Thanks all for the help!!
For next time...
I assume the bolster screws into the side of the barrel and holds the nipple,and the breech plug is conventional.
So,you have a hole for the bolster drilled and tapped through the barrel wall.
Most of the time when a hole is drilled,a burr is pushed forward on the side the drill breaks through.
So now,when you push a patch clear to the breech,the patch bridges over that hole and can snag.That is likely what happened.
And,of course,the crunchy fouling builds up at the breech.
What to do about it?
When I was building them,I picked up on the Hawken style hook breech.I used the Griffin.
No bolster,the fire is delivered through the breech plug.
And,the barrel is removed for a water cleaning by pulling two wedge keys.
Anyway,Many bolsters have a cleanout plug screw in the end of them.Easy to add.That can be a minimum impact access to used a probe to unsnag the patch material.Failing that,the bolster can be removed.I would not make a habit of it,though.
If possible,consider your patch size and jag style .If you can avoid having the patch edged going past the bolster hole it will help.
I always had good luck with the standard button typ brass jag with grooves.
A good split hickory ramrod works and is useful,but I don't use them for the range rod,
If you can find one,the GI one piece steel rod for the .50 BMG is great.
I assume the bolster screws into the side of the barrel and holds the nipple,and the breech plug is conventional.
So,you have a hole for the bolster drilled and tapped through the barrel wall.
Most of the time when a hole is drilled,a burr is pushed forward on the side the drill breaks through.
So now,when you push a patch clear to the breech,the patch bridges over that hole and can snag.That is likely what happened.
And,of course,the crunchy fouling builds up at the breech.
What to do about it?
When I was building them,I picked up on the Hawken style hook breech.I used the Griffin.
No bolster,the fire is delivered through the breech plug.
And,the barrel is removed for a water cleaning by pulling two wedge keys.
Anyway,Many bolsters have a cleanout plug screw in the end of them.Easy to add.That can be a minimum impact access to used a probe to unsnag the patch material.Failing that,the bolster can be removed.I would not make a habit of it,though.
If possible,consider your patch size and jag style .If you can avoid having the patch edged going past the bolster hole it will help.
I always had good luck with the standard button typ brass jag with grooves.
A good split hickory ramrod works and is useful,but I don't use them for the range rod,
If you can find one,the GI one piece steel rod for the .50 BMG is great.
North East Redneck
New member
Glad you got it out.
I once lost a brass jag and patch in a .54 sidelock while sighting in out in the field. Removed the screw in the drum, packed it with powder and was able to shoot it out. Didn't matter, no deer that trip.
I once lost a brass jag and patch in a .54 sidelock while sighting in out in the field. Removed the screw in the drum, packed it with powder and was able to shoot it out. Didn't matter, no deer that trip.