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Paramilitary Training??
- Thread starter vostracker
- Start date
Obviously no one here knows the facts or what other evidence there might be. The point however, was, the public "evidence" like the undercover videos taken by the informant, in my opinion do not show "paramilitary training"
I also highly doubt that a handful of people were planning to shoot up a government building in hopes to start a race war.
What I've seen so far is a group of people shooting on their land like many of us do. The only difference here is these people have views that many dont agree with.
Also keep in mind when there is an informant involved there are lies. These informants need to make a case so they can make good on their deals to lessen their own sentences.
I also highly doubt that a handful of people were planning to shoot up a government building in hopes to start a race war.
What I've seen so far is a group of people shooting on their land like many of us do. The only difference here is these people have views that many dont agree with.
Also keep in mind when there is an informant involved there are lies. These informants need to make a case so they can make good on their deals to lessen their own sentences.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
But there almost certainly a lot more than the "public evidence." So it's pretty much a waste of time debating or discussing the "public evidence" when what will really count is the stuff we don't and can't know.jkmills88 said:...The point however, was, the public "evidence" like the undercover videos taken by the informant, in my opinion do not show "paramilitary training"...
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
One should read http://www.amazon.com/Lone-Wolf-Terror-Leaderless-Resistance/dp/0826518559
There are documented cases of individuals or small groups who do plan small attacks for religious, racial, ecoterrorist, left wing, right wing or messages from Mars reasons.
There are documented cases of individuals or small groups who do plan small attacks for religious, racial, ecoterrorist, left wing, right wing or messages from Mars reasons.
Double Naught Spy
New member
I think the problem is that they are calling is "paramilitary" and giving it the value that it is for an illegal activity, despite as AB noted that most tactical training would be considered paramilitary training in the sense that it is similar to what the military does.
It sounds like such laws are just laws that replicate what other laws already say is illegal, like when it became a crime to firebomb churches in the South despite the fact that it already was a crime to commit arson and the like.
It sounds like such laws are just laws that replicate what other laws already say is illegal, like when it became a crime to firebomb churches in the South despite the fact that it already was a crime to commit arson and the like.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Where is that spelled out in any state or Federal law?Teeroux said:Paramilitary training is more than just shooting classes or instruction. It involves enrolement in a rank and file group. As in you do not recieve training for personal use and move on. You recieve training as a functional member of a group.
I know a couple of guys who participate in a paintball club. They practice seriously military-style tactics, taught to them by a member who is a former Special Forces major. Their training could very definitely be described as "paramilitary" but they have no ranks, the club has no military (or "paramilitary") structure, and their intent is nothing more than to have more realistic paintball battles.
didn't I see the line that said "shooting into an occuppied dwelling"..??
I see that as what probably got these guys busted, and since they were, the other charges were loaded on, (because the govt could) to add pressure to the case. I don't think they were busted for paramiliatry training, but it was added in because what they did showed their intent, and that, under the law, made the training a crime, due to the intent.
I could,of course, be wrong...
I see that as what probably got these guys busted, and since they were, the other charges were loaded on, (because the govt could) to add pressure to the case. I don't think they were busted for paramiliatry training, but it was added in because what they did showed their intent, and that, under the law, made the training a crime, due to the intent.
I could,of course, be wrong...
Fishing_Cabin
New member
AB,
While the law doesnt mentioned a rank and file group, or being a member of any group specifically, it would seem that the training and involvement in such would be geared toward creating a civil disturbance, and thus a violation of the law. I believe the question over this is due to proving the "intent" of those involved.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/790.29
here is a link listing other states as well.
http://thefiringline.com/library/milpara.html
While the law doesnt mentioned a rank and file group, or being a member of any group specifically, it would seem that the training and involvement in such would be geared toward creating a civil disturbance, and thus a violation of the law. I believe the question over this is due to proving the "intent" of those involved.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/790.29
flsenate.gov link above said:790.29 Paramilitary training; teaching or participation prohibited.—
(1) This act shall be known and may be cited as the “State Antiparamilitary Training Act.”
(2) As used in this section, the term “civil disorder” means a public disturbance involving acts of violence by an assemblage of three or more persons, which disturbance causes an immediate danger of, or results in, damage or injury to the property or person of any other individual within the United States.
(3)(a) Whoever teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, destructive device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that the same will be unlawfully employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(b) Whoever assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, destructive device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to unlawfully employ the same for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(4) Nothing contained in this section shall be construed to prohibit any act of a law enforcement officer which is performed in connection with the lawful performance of his or her official duties or to prohibit the training or teaching of the use of weapons to be used for hunting, recreation, competition, self-defense or the protection of one’s person or property, or other lawful use.
here is a link listing other states as well.
http://thefiringline.com/library/milpara.html
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Double Naught Spy
New member
I've had group training which would be above and beyond individual training and it wasn't just shooting instruction. You can get this at a lot of schools. It isn't any big deal. So it even fits your concept of 'paramilitary' treeoux, only it wasn't for doing anything bad as spelled out by state laws.
There are numerous survivalists that engage in group training with absolutely no ill will towards any other group, citizenry, or the goverment, but are concerned with societal breakdown in general. Their training fits the typical non-[il]legal definition of being paramilitary training. They are simply concerned with using group dynamics to overcome adversity.
So the term, "paramilitary" is given a bad name in its legal use where such is defined as being illegal because it involves training for the commission of illegal acts, but the same training not for the commission of illegal acts isn't legally paramilitary even if it is the same training.
There are numerous survivalists that engage in group training with absolutely no ill will towards any other group, citizenry, or the goverment, but are concerned with societal breakdown in general. Their training fits the typical non-[il]legal definition of being paramilitary training. They are simply concerned with using group dynamics to overcome adversity.
So the term, "paramilitary" is given a bad name in its legal use where such is defined as being illegal because it involves training for the commission of illegal acts, but the same training not for the commission of illegal acts isn't legally paramilitary even if it is the same training.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
The following was quoted in response to my post asking where in any statute it is defined that "paramilitary training" is determined by membership in a "rank and file" organization. In citing this, member Fishing_Cabin emphasized section (3)(b).
However, the statute cited (which is similar to the statutes of several other states I have seen) does not define "paramilitary" as predicated on membership in a "rank and file" organization, nor does the statute prohibit paramilitary training in general. Rather, the statute specifies WHEN paramilitary training is prohibited. It is prohibited when it is "intending to unlawfully employ the same for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States ..." The same language also appears in paragraph (3)(a).
So ... first, the law doesn't mention anything about an "organization;" it says "whoever assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with ..." The language of this section would cover any tactical or self-defense course offered by Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, any NRA Personal protection in the Home (or Outside of the Home) class, and probably even the NRA Basic Pistol class.
Second ... the law does NOT prohibit paramilitary training. It is not a blanket prohibition. The law prohibits paramilitary training **ONLY** if and when the purpose of the training (or perhaps the purpose of the person receiving the training) is "... intending to unlawfully employ the same for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States ..."
Consequently, if I wanted to recruit a bunch of friends and train us up to be a second line of defense after the police for our town against a terrorist or zombie attack, even if we formally organize and even if we have military-like uniforms and use military ranks and insignia of rank and even if our training is blatantly "paramilitary" ... this statute would NOT prohibit us from doing so, because our intent is not to cause civil disorder, but to defend the community.
However, the statute cited (which is similar to the statutes of several other states I have seen) does not define "paramilitary" as predicated on membership in a "rank and file" organization, nor does the statute prohibit paramilitary training in general. Rather, the statute specifies WHEN paramilitary training is prohibited. It is prohibited when it is "intending to unlawfully employ the same for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States ..." The same language also appears in paragraph (3)(a).
So ... first, the law doesn't mention anything about an "organization;" it says "whoever assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with ..." The language of this section would cover any tactical or self-defense course offered by Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, any NRA Personal protection in the Home (or Outside of the Home) class, and probably even the NRA Basic Pistol class.
Second ... the law does NOT prohibit paramilitary training. It is not a blanket prohibition. The law prohibits paramilitary training **ONLY** if and when the purpose of the training (or perhaps the purpose of the person receiving the training) is "... intending to unlawfully employ the same for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States ..."
Consequently, if I wanted to recruit a bunch of friends and train us up to be a second line of defense after the police for our town against a terrorist or zombie attack, even if we formally organize and even if we have military-like uniforms and use military ranks and insignia of rank and even if our training is blatantly "paramilitary" ... this statute would NOT prohibit us from doing so, because our intent is not to cause civil disorder, but to defend the community.
790.29 Paramilitary training; teaching or participation prohibited.—
(1) This act shall be known and may be cited as the “State Antiparamilitary Training Act.”
(2) As used in this section, the term “civil disorder” means a public disturbance involving acts of violence by an assemblage of three or more persons, which disturbance causes an immediate danger of, or results in, damage or injury to the property or person of any other individual within the United States.
(3)(a) Whoever teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, destructive device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that the same will be unlawfully employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(b) Whoever assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, destructive device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to unlawfully employ the same for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(4) Nothing contained in this section shall be construed to prohibit any act of a law enforcement officer which is performed in connection with the lawful performance of his or her official duties or to prohibit the training or teaching of the use of weapons to be used for hunting, recreation, competition, self-defense or the protection of one’s person or property, or other lawful use.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Right, but look at the name of the act.
(1) This act shall be known and may be cited as the “State Antiparamilitary Training Act.”
The law defines the activities of paramilitary training that would be illegal, but you can be arrested for "paramilitary training" as per the article, and that is just hokey.
I know nobody arrested for driving. Driving like paramilitary training isn't illegal, but drunk driving is. We don't have antidriving laws, but anti drunk driving laws.
So for John Q. Public who hears that you are involved in "paramilitary training" may think that you are indeed engaged in illegal activities. It certainly comes across that way when you read of folks arrested/charged as such.
(1) This act shall be known and may be cited as the “State Antiparamilitary Training Act.”
The law defines the activities of paramilitary training that would be illegal, but you can be arrested for "paramilitary training" as per the article, and that is just hokey.
I know nobody arrested for driving. Driving like paramilitary training isn't illegal, but drunk driving is. We don't have antidriving laws, but anti drunk driving laws.
So for John Q. Public who hears that you are involved in "paramilitary training" may think that you are indeed engaged in illegal activities. It certainly comes across that way when you read of folks arrested/charged as such.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Technically, the law cited does not define "paramilitary training," because the only term defined in the law is "civil disorder."DNS said:The law defines the activities of paramilitary training that would be illegal, but you can be arrested for "paramilitary training" as per the article, and that is just hokey.
Nonetheless, the law DOES state that certain activities are prohibited, but those activities are proscribed ONLY if they are undertaken with the intention of creating or furthering civil disorder. It is not a general prohibition of paramilitary training, it is only a prohibition of paramilitary training for the specific purpose of causing civil disorder.
A simpler analog would be personal body armor. It's often assumed that "civilians" are not allowed to own body armor. However, in my state and in many other states, there is no prohibition against owning personal body armor for your own self protection. There IS a prohibition against wearing personal body armor in the commission of a felony.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
I also highly doubt that a handful of people were planning to shoot up a government building in hopes to start a race war.
To continue - just finished reading a scholary text on 'lone wolf' or leaderless resistance terrorism. In the section on Islamic cells in the west, Al Qaeda manuals recommend using the easy to access American guns laws to arm oneself for such lone wolf actions.
One plan of Al Qaeda is to socially disrupt the USA fabric. Hassan was a prime example. Others have been found the USA.
Davidrgale
Moderator
I just don't like this type of training. This are just waste of time and nothing.
Where is that spelled out in any state or Federal law?
Paramilitary definition.
A paramilitary is a military-esque force whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military, but which is not considered part of a state's formal armed forces.
compliments wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramilitary
I would see how Paramilitary is defined by your state law. There is usually a definition section.
This is how my state reads. La RS14:117
§117.1. Paramilitary organizations; prohibitions
A. No paramilitary organization, or any member thereof, shall train in this state.
B. Whoever violates the provisions of this Section shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or be imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.
C.(1) For the purposes of this Section, "paramilitary organization" shall mean a group organized in a military or paramilitary structure, consisting of two or more persons who knowingly possess firearms or other weapons and who train in the use of such firearms or weapons, or knowingly teach or offer to teach the use of such firearms or weapons to others, for the purpose of committing an offense under the laws of this state or any political subdivision thereof.
(2) It shall not include a law enforcement agency, the armed services or reserve forces of the United States, the Louisiana National Guard, or any other organization that may possess firearms and train with such firearms, or teach or offer to teach the use of such firearms to others, for a lawful purpose.
http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=78279
If your state law doesn't have the definition written in the law there may be a general definition under that general section.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Let's change the emphasis on part of the law cited by teeroux:
Substitute "an offense" for "to create civil disorder" and this law reads very similarly to the law in my state. In fact, if you read the definition as it is written, unless the two or more people have the purpose of committing an offense, they are NOT considered a paramilitary organization under this definition, regardless of how much they might look like a militia.
C.(1) For the purposes of this Section, "paramilitary organization" shall mean a group organized in a military or paramilitary structure, consisting of two or more persons who knowingly possess firearms or other weapons and who train in the use of such firearms or weapons, or knowingly teach or offer to teach the use of such firearms or weapons to others, for the purpose of committing an offense under the laws of this state or any political subdivision thereof.
Substitute "an offense" for "to create civil disorder" and this law reads very similarly to the law in my state. In fact, if you read the definition as it is written, unless the two or more people have the purpose of committing an offense, they are NOT considered a paramilitary organization under this definition, regardless of how much they might look like a militia.