Paper Trail (or lack thereof). What's it worth?

[Hal]

You can purge data from an active database.
That doesn't mean the data is purged from any of the backups that are done of the database.
Matter of fact, since purging data from a backup defeats the purpose of doing a backup, then it's very plausible to believe every entry ever made in NICS is still able to be retrieved - provided the right backups of the data are available.
Which is a catch 22..
The "right" backups would be 100% consistent with best practices.

FWIW - I spent from 1993 until August of last year when I retired as a network engineer and database administrator.
The latter ten years of my career were mostly devoted to database administration./database retrieval.

 

[johnbt]

"I can't imagine buying a gun without getting a receipt. Why would I not want one and what kind of seller wouldn't offer one?"

Speaking of private sales, I've never heard of a receipt being used by any of my friends or relatives during the past 50 or 60 years. (I'm 62.)

 

[Webleymkv]

Lets stop and think about a few things for a moment. If you listen to what the dealer says when he/she calls in the NICS check, the only information that they give about the firearm itself is whether its a long gun or handgun, that's it. The identifying information such as make, model, caliber, and serial number is only recorded on the 4473 which, as has been pointed out, is retained by the dealer until 20 years has passed or he/she no longer has an FFL, whichever comes first.

Now, on the extremely remote chance that there is somehow a Feinstein "turn them all in Mr. and Mrs. America" total ban (the chances of which are almost nill in light of Heller and McDonald), the only way that the gov't has to know exactly what guns you have is to track down all of the 4473's you've filled out. That would be an extremely difficult task to do for even one person if said person had bought multiple guns from multiple FFL's (I myself have bought guns from at least 8 FFL's that I can think of right off the top of my head) and, if the person has been buying guns for over 20 years not all of those 4473's may even still be in existence. Also, because private-party sales are legal in most states, there is no guarantee that the person will still have all, or even any, of the guns listed on the 4473's.

Now, as difficult as using 4473's as a registration for one person would be, it would be just about impossible for the millions of Americans who've filled them out. The more likely way that some sort of nightmare confiscation scheme would be executed would be to simply show up and search the home of everyone who's ever had a NICS check run or, more likely, just go house-to-house and search everyone's home whether they're known to own a gun or not.

Of course, if we should ever get to the point that the jack-booted thugs are knocking down doors to take away the guns (which as I said before is extremely unlikely), we probably have bigger problems than whether or not our names are in a database somewhere.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

You can purge data from an active database.
That doesn't mean the data is purged from any of the backups that are done of the database.
Matter of fact, since purging data from a backup defeats the purpose of doing a backup, then it's very plausible to believe every entry ever made in NICS is still able to be retrieved - provided the right backups of the data are available.
Which is a catch 22..
The "right" backups would be 100% consistent with best practices.

FWIW - I spent from 1993 until August of last year when I retired as a network engineer and database administrator.
The latter ten years of my career were mostly devoted to database administration./database retrieval.

The assumption being that you would bother backing up a database that's supposed to be erased every 24 hours.

Maybe they do, but where's the evidence?

Speaking of private sales, I've never heard of a receipt being used by any of my friends or relatives during the past 50 or 60 years. (I'm 62.)

Interesting. If I were buying from close friends or family, I wouldn't be too concerned about a receipt but from perfect strangers? No thanks. There's no reason to NOT get a receipt, there's plausible reasons TO get one and there's NO plausible reason to deny one.

I consider it a legitimacy check. I'm not asking for ID or notarized paperwork or proof of ownership or anything silly. I want a piece of paper that says "Brian Pfleuger bought Ruger MkII Serial XYZ123 from John Doe on Nov. 21st, 2012. Signed by John Doe and Brian Pfleuger"

Denying that request would be highly suspicious.

 

[mitchntx]

For states that allow private sales, I really can't see any benefit to a Bill of Sale.

A BoS requires corroboration otherwise its just a piece of paper with scribbling. If the second party is a criminal, that's not a lot to rely on.

Another point is if I sign a BoS and the transaction is legit ... who cares?

If I give a BoS to a criminal, then I've given a bad man my name and other personal information along with knowledge that I have disposable income and at least one gun.

No thanks. I've passed on reasonable deals because a BoS was required.

 

[2damnold4this]

Interesting. If I were buying from close friends or family, I wouldn't be too concerned about a receipt but from perfect strangers? No thanks. There's no reason to NOT get a receipt, there's plausible reasons TO get one and there's NO plausible reason to deny one.

I agree.

 

[22-rimfire]

I like Colt Diamondback revolvers (and Colts in general). A number of years ago, a person on a forum indicated he would be interested in selling some. He said that he had quite a few. I commented and wondered how he amassed such a collection just for conversation and interest sake. He reacted very negatively and I never heard from him again. I found this odd.

Do you think this person would want to provide a receipt?

With regard to the erasure of NIC check data... I have seen no proof one way or the other in terms of not accumulating this information into a larger and organized database/registry. I would think folks from BATFE would be very willing to state that this information is not saved (regardless of the law). But you don't see such a comment. Stating what the law is does not convince anyone who might be suspicious of government intrusiveness. It is a circular kind of discussion with no absolute answer.

The receipt discussion strays from the focus of this thread and has been discussed many times on the gun forums. I personally prefer a receipt on face to face sales, but it is situational.

 

[mrt949]

A friend of mine gave his daughter a pistol as a gift.I asked did you do any paper work ? He said no it's my daughter .Next day he asked did you do one for your daughter? I said yes .Gave him a copy .Guess what 3mo later the gun was stolen . He said good thing I listened to you . The local sheriff was happy they did it that way .It's called C.Y. A.

 

[Hal]

The assumption being that you would bother backing up a database that's supposed to be erased every 24 hours.

Maybe they do, but where's the evidence?

Of course they back it up.
Not backing it - (actually - them since certain wording in this description http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/fact-sheet leads me to suspect that there more than a single database) would be unacceptable.
No database manager in their right mind would agree to not backing up.

Even though some data in the database pertaining to the transaction is to be deleted, not all of it is deleted.

"(iii) In cases of NICS Audit Log records relating to allowed transactions, all identifying information submitted by or on behalf of the transferee will be destroyed within 24 hours after the FFL receives communication of the determination that the transfer may proceed. All other information, except the NTN and date, will be destroyed after not more than 90 days from the date of inquiry."

From that it appears the date and NTN (NICS transaction number - possibly NICS transaction number????) are retained.
If that NTN does refer to a transaction number, it just makes sense that it should be retained .....can you imagine what a duplicate number would do to the system?

So - yes - it's not my assumption the database or databases are backed up.
It's my professional experience in that field for over a decade that makes me conclude backups are done.
The only real question is how long are the backups retained.

As far as I know - and I could be wrong on current (within the last two years) relational databases systems, selective records or tables in a database can't be excluded from a backup.
Neither can selective portions of transaction/redo logs.

Being out of that field for over a year, I don't know about the former being true or not.
Knowing how a RDMS works on the inside, I know for 100% certainty the latter is true.