Paper Trail (or lack thereof). What's it worth?

L

leadchucker

New member
Situation one: You buy a used gun at the LGS, you fill out the 4473, the record of the transaction goes in the FFL's bound book. Now there is a traceable record that you have that gun.

Situation two: You buy the same used gun off a table at a gun show, you pay your money, you walk away with the gun. Other than what the guy who sold it to you might remember, there is no record that you have that gun.

Which would you prefer? And if you don't mind saying, why? Would you pay a slight bit more for one or the other? Would you expect any difference in price between the two sales? Lets disregard sales tax and NICS charges for the sake of this discussion.
 
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I could care less either way.

If it comes to the point that they are seizing bound books and going house to house looking for guns, I won't be there.;)
 
I have no problem with the 4473. I do document if the form was completed for the sale or purchase in my records, but that is as far as it goes.

No, I would not pay extra for a face to face sale. In fact, it is the opposite. The price is based on our negotiations and has nothing to do with papers or not.
 
for the most part i dont care who its from ive gotten mine both ways, however the only time i might prefer one over the other is if your buying a HD gun or a carry gun, i like to get them from a ffl dealer , it just might look better to a jurry or people who want more strict gun laws, it looks better to say yea i just went to bass pro and got this shotgun and filled out the forms vs. yea some guy down the street sold it to me. regardless if its legal or not theyre gana look for any reason to say youre a trigger happy crazy
also i dont think i would pay more for either method
 
Some people put a lot of stock in "unregistered" (:rolleyes:) weapons. I.E. one's that they bought used without a background check and are selling under the same parameters.

4473 is not registration, it's a background check.

I have weapons that I purchased and filled out paperwork for. I have a few that I did not. I don't value them any differently.
 
The only thing I see that could be problematic is, what's your recourse if the gun off the table is "hot/stolen"??????:confused:
The only way I buy without paper is from some one I know well enough to trust.
 
4473 is not registration, it's a background check.
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I'm in CA but I assume the 4473 is federal back ground . If it's the same paper work we do here in CA also known as DROS . The store can't start the background check till it has a serial # for the gun . I'm not sure if that at the same time registers the firearm or not . There is for sure paper work at the state and I believe the federal level showing the exact gun I bought . For the most part I don't reaaly care if the gun is known to the state to be mine .
 
I'm in CA but I assume the 4473 is federal back ground
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the 4473 is the paperwork that has to be filled out when purchasing a firearm from a FFL dealer.
Here at www.atf.gov will answer all you thoughts and questions as to what the 4473 form is.
 
Metalgod, You're filling out two separate sets of paperwork. A 4473 and the DROS(the one you put your thumbprint on). They just hand it all to you at the same time usually.
 
4473 is not registration, it's a background check.
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It's often not even that. The primary purpose of a 4473 is for an FFL to show he's staying in compliance with the law. As a record-keeping scheme, it's full of potential holes.

Would I want a receipt to show who I got a gun from? Yes, but that's about it.
 
i get a receipt even if it is hand written,and in Texas theres no finger print at least as far as i remember! and no it don't matter.
 
Times have changed since I started buying guns. In the 1970s in North Texas, there were two major gun shows a year. One in Dallas, and one in Ft. Worth.
No dealers were allowed to sell at gun shows. http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/a/Gun-Shows.htm

When a gun was bought or sold, there was no Federal form to fill out, and very few, if any, people asked for receipts. It was, for the most part, cash only, no questions asked. I don't know if that way was better or worse, but that's the way it was.

Seems like "good" deals were a little more common back then, but maybe that's just "good old days" syndrome. Of course new guns were almost unseen at gun shows, because there were no licensed dealers there selling or buying.

Walter
 
If I were a Fed, and the Govt. was planning through law change or martial law to take everyone's guns away,,,besides getting the paperwork from the FFL dealers, that is from the FFL Dealers who did not have a fire or their records stolen, I would monitor Gun Forums on the Internet such as this one and through technology maybe the IP Address I would know who probably owned firearms and where they lived.

I suppose to be really safe, one would have to have all their firearms not registered, never talk to anyone or let anyone know you owned firearms, forget about concealed carry at least legally, and never shoot your firearms unless you own a lot of land where no one would hear the gunshots a suppressor would be great for this but obviously not a possibility legally, join every anti gun group you can and become a vocal advocate of gun control,,,in other words a smoke screen the exact opposite of what you really are.

Call me crazy but I prefer paperwork on all my firearms coming and going to make sure they are legal when I buy them and to make sure if they are used illegally after I sell them that the paper trail does not end with me.
 
When I purchase a firearm I prefer all things be done legally and by the book. If I understand the last question, no I would not pay more for the transaction to be done legally and don't expect any differenced what so ever in the price.
 
It only matters if you have never purchased a firearm from an FFL. If you have purchased one, then they know you have at least one gun.

We know they are violating Federal law and are retaining records past 90 days when some north east police chief stated he had called the feds to track down a handgun that had been out of production for a few years.

The better path is to get involved with the firearms lobby and do more than pay membership dues. They need help at the grassroots level. Go out of your way to train young shooters, take them hunting, and coach them in competition. You know the drill.

When I purchase a firearm I prefer all things be done legally and by the book. If I understand the last question, no I would not pay more for the transaction to be done legally and don't expect any differenced what so ever in the price.
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The acquiring, use and disposal of property is a right in most states. In my state, I can buy and sell guns as I see fit and need no paperwork to do so. This is liberty and how the system should be. Citizens of other states may not be so lucky.
 
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We know they are violating Federal law and are retaining records past 90 days when some north east police chief stated he had called the feds to track down a handgun that had been out of production for a few years.
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Umm... 90 days? The 4473 is required to be kept for 20 years by the FFL if the transfer is completed, less otherwise, or forwarded in to the ATF storehouse in WV for the remainder of the time if the FFL goes out of business before 20 years since the sale.

Since it is a requirement of federal law, how is it a violation of federal law by your standards?

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/brady-law.html

Q: Do FFLs have to keep a copy of ATF Form 4473 if the transaction is denied or for some other reason is not completed?
FFLs must keep a copy of each ATF Form 4473 for which a NICS check has been initiated, regardless of whether the transfer of the firearm was made. If the transfer is not made, the FFL must keep the Form 4473 for 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry. If the transfer is made, the FFL must keep the Form 4473 for 20 years after the date of the sale or disposition. Forms 4473 with respect to a transfer that did not take place must be separately maintained.

[27 CFR 478.129(b)]
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Always love to learn new info, but the 90 days is a new one on me....
 
Always love to learn new info, but the 90 days is a new one on me.
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Me too. There's been a gun shop at the physical location of mine for almost 30 years. The old ownership is long gone, but I'll still get the occasional trace request for something from years ago.

Manufacturers, distributors, and retailers still have to retain records for tracing purposes. The 90-day thing might be a reference to persistent NICS data, but that gets purged within 24 hours of resolution.
 
...persistent NICS data, but that gets purged within 24 hours of resolution.
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Correction...."supposed" to be purged...

The 4473 is a signed and witnessed affidavit stating you are who you say you are and you meet the pre-conditions for the purchase of a firearm. Lying is punishable by law.
 
Correction...."supposed" to be purged.
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If you've got proof otherwise, a lot of people would like to see it.

As it is, that was always a concern, but the system's been around almost 20 years. There have been no credible allegations that anything inappropriate is being done with the data.
 
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