Allen_Raiford
New member
How does this beast carry? Is the butt heaviness and short muzzle a problem?
Who makes a good IWB for this pistol?
Who makes a good IWB for this pistol?
P7M8 for ccw? Pro/Con
- Thread starter Allen_Raiford
- Start date
thequickad
New member
isn't the P7 a bit heavy for an all steel pistol? Why not a Glock 26? more firepower.
Dave Finfrock
New member
The P7 has little barrel forward of the grip, so you HAVE to have good leather gear. No half-assed stuff here. The Rosen belt slide and the Wilderness Zip-Slide are about perfect. Since the gun is so short, IWB holsters aren't really necessary, unless you're in shirtsleeves.
What he said, Quickad. Anyways Allen, beware of advice from anyone who's handle is "The Quick AD" (Accidental Discharge) 
I also use a Kramer IWB #3. For my first holster it is nice. Although some remarks make we want to check out the Alessi rigs.
It is hard to find a serious con with the P7 series. Most of those fall into the more firepower argument, or caliber argument, which you can argue until you are blue in the face and no matter how hard you try, you can't conceal a chaingun (easily)
A minor con is the slide lock button, detent, which is not easy to access.
Another minor con is the price.
A third minor con applies to rapidfire practice, which isn't really practicing anything of value. Anyways the blowback system can create noticeable heat under this condition.
One of the best pros cannot be understood by those that don't handle a P7. Basically, the squeeze cocker design makes drawing, cocking, decocking/safing and releasing the slide intrinsically faster and more instinctive than any other firearm. Period.
[This message has been edited by PVerdieck (edited February 20, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by PVerdieck (edited February 20, 2000).]
I also use a Kramer IWB #3. For my first holster it is nice. Although some remarks make we want to check out the Alessi rigs.
It is hard to find a serious con with the P7 series. Most of those fall into the more firepower argument, or caliber argument, which you can argue until you are blue in the face and no matter how hard you try, you can't conceal a chaingun (easily)
A minor con is the slide lock button, detent, which is not easy to access.
Another minor con is the price.
A third minor con applies to rapidfire practice, which isn't really practicing anything of value. Anyways the blowback system can create noticeable heat under this condition.
One of the best pros cannot be understood by those that don't handle a P7. Basically, the squeeze cocker design makes drawing, cocking, decocking/safing and releasing the slide intrinsically faster and more instinctive than any other firearm. Period.
[This message has been edited by PVerdieck (edited February 20, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by PVerdieck (edited February 20, 2000).]
Having owned a P7M13, I am here to tell you that they are nice, but not all that everyone makes them to be. It was great for a year, until the thrill wore off. Then it became the heavy, over-heating, and expensive pistol that I found it to be after a few thousand rounds. This weapon is no faster than any other weapon in the hand of an experienced user. On the combat course, my reloads took the same amount of time with the M13 as with the Glock 23,19,17, and 21. A big argument is accuracy, the small fraction of accuracy, at least between the M13 and my Glock 17, is not worth the extra money. The money saved on a P7 can buy alot of hi-caps or another 17 with nite sites.
I dont want anyone to be offended, but I also want to dispell the mythical perfect pistol image that is given to this weapon. It is an excellent pistol, just not for everyone.
Be Safe
Mike
I dont want anyone to be offended, but I also want to dispell the mythical perfect pistol image that is given to this weapon. It is an excellent pistol, just not for everyone.
Be Safe
Mike
I must disagree with "one"...I bought my P7M13 in the late 80's. I later bought 3 more pistols, eventually selling each one (a PT-92, a BTA-90, and a Sig P239) because I was so spoiled by the P7...nothing else seemed good enough. Finally I bought ANOTHER P7...this time a refurb P7M8. I think I will give up on buying pistols now...nothing else compares.
They are awesome pistols for both carry and competition. Action Pistol is SOOO much easier with the P7M13.
The carry thing is tricker with these guns. While they are superb, they are rare, and therefore accessories are rare...such as good holsters.
I have ordered a Versa Max-2 for the P7 from Milt Sparks in black cowhide. We will see how it turns out...
They are awesome pistols for both carry and competition. Action Pistol is SOOO much easier with the P7M13.
The carry thing is tricker with these guns. While they are superb, they are rare, and therefore accessories are rare...such as good holsters.
I have ordered a Versa Max-2 for the P7 from Milt Sparks in black cowhide. We will see how it turns out...
As to One's being underwhelmed by the P7 for defensive use. There are plenty of shooters who don't see the need for any additional safety mechanisms above and beyond that the gun won't fire if the trigger isn't pulled. For such persons, it may be difficult to see why a P7 is any better than, say, a Glock: both are low bore axis, easy to shoot pistols, both reliable, etc. If this is your bias, the P7 is more gun than you'll probably ever be able to justify. However, the P7, in EVERY meaningful category that has ANY importance to choosing a pistol for defense, is simply superior. To get a feel for its superiority you need both to shoot the thing and to think a bit about what a defensive pistol is supposed to do.
All I mentioned was what I saw as the weapons short comings and apprently, I am not entitled to my opinions. It's not the weapon that makes the shooter, its the range time and the training. I don't buy nor will I accept the fact that any one defensive pistol will make a person that much better. A model may have positive attributes and feel more comfortable to an individual, but it doesn't mean that this is the cut and dried best. I guess if my Glock had a $1000 price tag it might be worthy of you admiration.
I will try to keep my opinions to myself, as I did not realize that this was a forum. Maybe others should too, I mean after all thequickad asked a question and got such an in depth explanation. Kinda reminds me of when I was 5 and my Mom said "Because I said so, thats why" Didn't realize that buying a $1000 pistol gives that kind of authority.
I will try to keep my opinions to myself, as I did not realize that this was a forum. Maybe others should too, I mean after all thequickad asked a question and got such an in depth explanation. Kinda reminds me of when I was 5 and my Mom said "Because I said so, thats why" Didn't realize that buying a $1000 pistol gives that kind of authority.
One-
I don't think anyone was dumping on you.
They were just countering your counterpoint.
You made some valid points(I think we all respect your opinion) after all there is no one gun for everyone.
I myself didn't like the P7 when I first tried one but after getting a Refurb. and working with it I came to appreciate its strong points so much that its weak points (which you pointed out) became less important.
Now I am a certified P7 junkie but this does not keep me from acknowledging its not perfect(it's not ,no gun is).
Dave(Say Hi to Nick for me.
).
[This message has been edited by Dave9 (edited February 21, 2000).]
I don't think anyone was dumping on you.
They were just countering your counterpoint.
You made some valid points(I think we all respect your opinion) after all there is no one gun for everyone.
I myself didn't like the P7 when I first tried one but after getting a Refurb. and working with it I came to appreciate its strong points so much that its weak points (which you pointed out) became less important.
Now I am a certified P7 junkie but this does not keep me from acknowledging its not perfect(it's not ,no gun is).
Dave(Say Hi to Nick for me.
).[This message has been edited by Dave9 (edited February 21, 2000).]
One,
you are certainly entitled to your opinion (1st amendment, remember?). it would be a shame to lose your perspective b/c of a few disagreements. theres no right answer here anyway.
in my experience, the p7 is a pretty good gun. low recoil, reliable, accurate and safe. the downsides are that its heavy and gets hot pretty quick. however, ive fired 2-300 rounds at one sitting (with no breaks in-between) and the heat doesnt get too extreme.
personally, i feel that it is no more accurate than other well made guns (sigs come to mind), and i feel the squeeze cocker, while a nice feature, is not really necessary and i personally dont care for it. sure, a bg might have a tougher time figuring it out, but then it might take him a little while to find the safety on other guns (ok, maybe not glocks or sigs), eh? it does allow for a decent SA pull on every shot though.
in the end, there are a lot of VERY satisfied p7 owners out there, just as there are plently of happy glock and sig owners. IMHO, its generally a good sign when a firearm has a cult following (glock users especially come to mind). while the p7 is not my first choice for a gun, i think it is well worth $1000+. I would personally go for NIB rather than refurbished. just my $0.02
you are certainly entitled to your opinion (1st amendment, remember?). it would be a shame to lose your perspective b/c of a few disagreements. theres no right answer here anyway.
in my experience, the p7 is a pretty good gun. low recoil, reliable, accurate and safe. the downsides are that its heavy and gets hot pretty quick. however, ive fired 2-300 rounds at one sitting (with no breaks in-between) and the heat doesnt get too extreme.
personally, i feel that it is no more accurate than other well made guns (sigs come to mind), and i feel the squeeze cocker, while a nice feature, is not really necessary and i personally dont care for it. sure, a bg might have a tougher time figuring it out, but then it might take him a little while to find the safety on other guns (ok, maybe not glocks or sigs), eh? it does allow for a decent SA pull on every shot though.
in the end, there are a lot of VERY satisfied p7 owners out there, just as there are plently of happy glock and sig owners. IMHO, its generally a good sign when a firearm has a cult following (glock users especially come to mind). while the p7 is not my first choice for a gun, i think it is well worth $1000+. I would personally go for NIB rather than refurbished. just my $0.02
Ive a couple of question's on this pistol.....Now this is the squeeze cocker were the front grip has to be "squeezed" in order to cock the pistol? Is that the only safety on the pistol?--other than not pulling the trigger. How is the record on this unique design regarding accidential discharges or failure to fire? If Im right you have to basically relax your grip to render the pistol safe after it has been cocked? Have there been problems of people not relaxing the grip and getting off an ad? Or on the other hand continuiing to grip the pistol and having an ad? I realize its most likely happened on occasion Im really wanting to know if yes its happened once or twice like every design, Im more interested in organizations that have transitioned to this design and how hard that transition was and the problems they encountered. Anyone?...fubsy.
For detailed information from a bunch of P7 owners, go to the hk-forum.com or park cities tactical for information.
I have Glocks, Sigs, and Kahrs. My Glock 26 and Glock 30 get less carry time than my HK P7 PSP because the PSP is even thinner than a Kahr K9.
And for most shooters, once you get accustomed to the P7's manual of arms, there is no faster gun to engage a target with. No second SA shot to work to!
And when it comes to shoot/no shoot scennrios with a partially covered hostage taker, that marginal accuracy becomes real important in head shots.
One inch can mean the difference between a dead BG/hostage-taker or a dead wife.
Sure, the darn thing is heavy but for me, but IWB eliminated any weight considerations. I could carry a 48 ounce Star Megastar IWB and not feel the weight although I would print like a press!
I carry any one of my P7s in a cheap no-name cordura IWB holster by Mil Tech - $12.99. Comfortable, great retention, clips onto my belt with the butt canted forward a little bit.
Practice carrying IWB and see if your body style and walk reduces or eliminates weight considerations.
If I can't carry IWB or with a belt/hip holster like in a shoulder pack, then I do consider about getting out the Big Dawg, the Glock 30, for 230 grains of protection.
I own the mini-glocks and the P7s and carry the P7 most of the time.
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The Seattle SharpShooter
I have Glocks, Sigs, and Kahrs. My Glock 26 and Glock 30 get less carry time than my HK P7 PSP because the PSP is even thinner than a Kahr K9.
And for most shooters, once you get accustomed to the P7's manual of arms, there is no faster gun to engage a target with. No second SA shot to work to!
And when it comes to shoot/no shoot scennrios with a partially covered hostage taker, that marginal accuracy becomes real important in head shots.
One inch can mean the difference between a dead BG/hostage-taker or a dead wife.
Sure, the darn thing is heavy but for me, but IWB eliminated any weight considerations. I could carry a 48 ounce Star Megastar IWB and not feel the weight although I would print like a press!
I carry any one of my P7s in a cheap no-name cordura IWB holster by Mil Tech - $12.99. Comfortable, great retention, clips onto my belt with the butt canted forward a little bit.
Practice carrying IWB and see if your body style and walk reduces or eliminates weight considerations.
If I can't carry IWB or with a belt/hip holster like in a shoulder pack, then I do consider about getting out the Big Dawg, the Glock 30, for 230 grains of protection.
I own the mini-glocks and the P7s and carry the P7 most of the time.
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The Seattle SharpShooter
On the issue of AD. I believe the Utah State Troopers and the New Jersey State Police were some of thre first LE agencies in the US to order the P7M8s.
They had several ADs/NDs due to improper gun handling and inexperience. Most cops aren't gun people. At the acedemy, they refer to guns as "tools."
I wouldn't gauge crap from how many ill-trained cops blow a hole in a cruiser or have an AD because they didn't clear the chamber before attemtping to clean their gun. I can't tell you how many fellas have been shot just showing their LE co-workers their new gun toy! They just violate safe handling rules.
But the Port of Seattle PD has been carrying the P7M13s for a long while and none of them have reported any ADs to me. I shoot with them too!
PS - the P7M13 is not nor was it ever designed for concealed carry. It is a LE weapon due to its hi-cap mags and lack of 10-round mags. Great gun but the best buy still goes to the P7M8 or PSP. If you want a great 9mm with hi caps, go Glock 17 or sig P226!
If you're going to get a P7 for CC, the PSP is thinner than the M8. Just make sure you buy several mags with it. The European heel mags are harder to find.
Great guns.
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The Seattle SharpShooter
They had several ADs/NDs due to improper gun handling and inexperience. Most cops aren't gun people. At the acedemy, they refer to guns as "tools."
I wouldn't gauge crap from how many ill-trained cops blow a hole in a cruiser or have an AD because they didn't clear the chamber before attemtping to clean their gun. I can't tell you how many fellas have been shot just showing their LE co-workers their new gun toy! They just violate safe handling rules.
But the Port of Seattle PD has been carrying the P7M13s for a long while and none of them have reported any ADs to me. I shoot with them too!
PS - the P7M13 is not nor was it ever designed for concealed carry. It is a LE weapon due to its hi-cap mags and lack of 10-round mags. Great gun but the best buy still goes to the P7M8 or PSP. If you want a great 9mm with hi caps, go Glock 17 or sig P226!
If you're going to get a P7 for CC, the PSP is thinner than the M8. Just make sure you buy several mags with it. The European heel mags are harder to find.
Great guns.
------------------
The Seattle SharpShooter
JT
The hostage shot is one that I have trained for at great length. Do not let any pistol fool you into thinking that you have the advantage. Until placed in this siituation under stress fire you cannot be certain that the weapon will perform in the manner it did at the range. I am not an expert shot, but I train a great deal on and off the job and have become proficient at this shot. But I also want you to know that I trained until I could make this shot with any pistol I owned. Be it a Sig, Glock, H&K, or Beretta. These weapons are tools, when it all comes down to it, it's whose hands the tool is in.
Be Safe
Mike
The hostage shot is one that I have trained for at great length. Do not let any pistol fool you into thinking that you have the advantage. Until placed in this siituation under stress fire you cannot be certain that the weapon will perform in the manner it did at the range. I am not an expert shot, but I train a great deal on and off the job and have become proficient at this shot. But I also want you to know that I trained until I could make this shot with any pistol I owned. Be it a Sig, Glock, H&K, or Beretta. These weapons are tools, when it all comes down to it, it's whose hands the tool is in.
Be Safe
Mike