+P+

44 AMP said:
First question, how much ammo are we talking about? A box? three boxes? a case??? A semi trailer full?? (pipe dreams:rolleyes:)

Next question, are you certain it is Federal factory loaded ammunition, and not reloaded ammo in Federal cases and boxes? (had to ask)

I believe Federal is still in business, if you want to know what pressure the +p+ you have was loaded to, you might call them and ask....

Next, a few points to consider about SAAMI, pressure numbers, and our guns.

SAAMI standards are for INDUSTRY safety. They are set so what is made using their standards will be safe and function properly in 99%+ of the guns in use. Barring some defect in your gun SAAMI specs WILL BE SAFE.

But, the SAAMI limits are NOT safety boundary limits. They are not the limits at which things fail.

And, on that subject, PROOF loads are also not the limit at which things fail. Our guns survive proof load testing without failing and without damage.

Once, anyway..:rolleyes:

And this is what it comes down to, the maker's rating on guns for standard or +p is for continuous use. Is your gun going to blow up shooting ammo hotter than it is rated for (but still below proof level pressure)? Not likely.

can you damage your gun, wear it out prematurely shooting ammo hotter than it is rated for? Absolutely. How much shooting will do that?
NO ONE KNOWS.

It depends on the combination of specifics, and no one can tell you, first because they don't know all the specific interactions between your gun and the ammo, (and neither do you or I) and second, even if they did, no one will state "your gun will fail at round #457.." THe most you might find is some test where "our test gun failed at round #457"..which means almost nothing if your gun and ammo isn't identical to their test gun and ammo.

So, we ALL "err on the side of caution" about these things. Its just prudent, to stay where we are confident of both safety AND proper function.

For one example, I have a Colt alloy frame snubnose .38. Its long out of production now but at the time it was being made, Colt said it was ok with +p ammo. But, Colt ALSO said to send them the gun after firing 1,000 rounds of +p, so they could check it, and to send it to them every 1,000 rnds there after.

DO I shoot +p from that gun? No. Would I use +p in that gun at need without worry? Yes. (because there is no way I'm ever going to get close to shooting 1,000 rnds of it)

What matter isn't that ammo from a reputable ammo company like Federal is going to blow up your gun, (its HIGHLY unlikely) what matters is, is it going to work properly in your gun and how soon any overstrain (if there is any) will result in a problem. Only shooting will give you any idea of that. And only enough shooting will answer the question for certain, but testing to destruction is something most of us would rather avoid.

Ammo CAN be within "specs" and still be too much for your gun. Again, its a matter of specific combinations. and the stars lining up "just right".

I have read of this happening and personally experienced it, as well. Tested a .357 load (yes a hot one) that was within published data, in 4 different guns, flawless in 3 of them, but in one, fired cases stuck in the cylinder and could not be removed by normal hand pressure alone. The ammo was within spec, it was "safe" but it was NOT SUITABLE for that one specific individual revolver. And that one specific revolver worked normally with all other ammo.

And this is the only thing I would be concerned about shooting the Fed +p+ ammo you have from your gun. Not that it would blow it up, or damage it, but would it fire and eject properly. Only a shooting test will tell you that.

Call Federal, see what, if anything they can tell you about the ammo. Shoot a cylinder full and see if it behaves normally, or not. If it does, then I'd say you're fine to use it, once in a while.

Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it, or possibly, less...:D
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45rnds total, and it was given to me for free...
 
Originally Posted by JustJake View Post
A +P+ .38 load, whether factory ammo or reload, is right at .357 mag level.
So you're saying that 38 Special +P+ is right at 35,000 psi?
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"Standard-pressure .38 Special loads have a maximum average chamber pressure limit of 17,000 psi as established by SAAMI. +P .38 Special rounds have an average maximum pressure of 20,000 psi. +P+ loads are above 20,000 psi. SAAMI does not identify +P+ pressure limits, but Winchester’s specification sheet for the RA38110HP+ shows the maximum average pressure as 23,500 psi." Shooting Times Magazine
 
I personally have the mentality that if I feel I need +p+ in a cartridge, then what I really need is a different cartridge. In this case that would be 357 magnum, though I understand your LCR isn’t in 357 magnum.

To your question of can it physically survive the cartridge, my guess is yes but I’m not sure. I’d say ask Ruger, but not many manufacturers are going to tell you +p+ is approved for a given firearm (some exceptions do exist).


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So you're saying that a 38 Special +P+ will exceed the proof pressure limit of a 357 Magnum (which is 47,000 psi)?
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Nope, didn't say anything like that. I said:

In a .357 mag, I can't imagine .38 +P+ being hot enough to cause harm, but there actually isn't any guarantee even with that, because there just is no upper limit to the designation.
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I added the emphasis this time. But I do stand by the statement that because there is no upper limit to +P+, there is no guarantee that it will not harm any particular handgun. In other words, although I can't imagine it happening, there is really nothing to keep someone from loading a round capable of damaging even a magnum and calling it +P+, because +P+ has no definition or limits.

To say that a +P+ couldn't damage a .357 magnum is to assert that a .38 case can't be loaded with any powder in any amount that would exceed 47K psi. I haven't researched it, but a .38 case is pretty big by modern standards, so I seriously doubt that the statement is true.
 
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TailGator said:
Nope, didn't say anything like that. I said:

I added the emphasis this time. But I do stand by the statement that because there is no upper limit to +P+, there is no guarantee that it will not harm any particular handgun. In other words, although I can't imagine it happening, there is really nothing to keep someone from loading a round capable of damaging even a magnum and calling it +P+, because +P+ has no definition or limits.

To say that a +P+ couldn't damage a .357 magnum is to assert that a .38 case can't be loaded with any powder in any amount that would exceed 47K psi. I haven't researched it, but a .38 case is pretty big by modern standards, so I seriously doubt that the statement is true.
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You're saying the same thing again.
 
I've always been of the opinion that if Standard Pressure ammunition isn't enough for the intended purpose of the firearm then an overpressure load isn't either, and it's time to step up to a more powerful cartridge.

If you're going to shot +P and especially +P+ ammo out of a firearm, then it had better be a heavy duty firearm, preferably one which is overbuilt for the cartridge that it's chambered in, but frankly, I wouldn't do it regardless.
 
Yes, 74A95, I am saying the same thing. As I said earlier, I stand by the statement.

I just stopped by my reloading bench, scooped up a .38 special case full of Unique (a common powder) and weighed the load. Thirteen grains. Lyman Reloading Handbook, 49th Edition, recommends a maximum load of 8.3 grains with a 158 grain hollow point bullet for .357 magnum. That maximum load generates 38,300 PSI by the CUP method. Would you consider my 13 grain load safe in your .357? In your hand? Because without a definition for +P+, there is nothing to keep me from labeling that +P+. It's more than +P and it fits in the case. That's pretty much the only definition of +P+.
 
True, you can overload a .357 magnum with an unsuitable powder in .38 Special cases and call it +P+ because there is no official definition of the term.

But do you really think Federal is going to do that and sell the result to a government agency?
 
No, Mr. Watson, I got off track from the OP. I apologize.

I personally don't shoot +P+ because I don't know what it is. The example I chose was rather extreme, though, and would not want to be thought to be accusing Federal of dangerous marketing.
 
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The only way to know what +P+ means, in terms of pressure, is to contact the manufacturer and see if they will provide the information.

I have done that once and in that specific case, it turned out that, according to the manufacturer, the pressure was actually right at the top limit for +P. I suspect that they labeled it +P+ because they couldn't guarantee it would still be within the spec for +P in extreme conditions (high temperatures, heavily fouled chamber/leade, etc.).

Anyway, that underscores the idea that there's no telling what you have until the manufacturer weighs in.
 
I have done that once and in that specific case, it turned out that, according to the manufacturer, the pressure was actually right at the top limit for +P.
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This is the story I heard about the Federal load, the last one the FBI approved for purchase. It was right on the +p limit for pressure and due to the variance in individual rounds some rounds would (barely) exceed the listed spec so since ALL the rounds couldn't be guaranteed to be at the spec or under it, they just listed it as +p+.

Many (most?) rounds do not have a SAAMI +p spec. For them, there is no such thing as +P+. Anything over the standard pressure spec is considered +p no matter how much, or how little.

Same goes for cartridges that do have a SAAMI +P spec. Any round exceeding that spec is +p+ no matter if it is just 1psi over the limit or 10,000.
 
I'm going to call Federal this week and ask. Curious to see what they say. I may also pull a round apart and see if I can figure out what's in it. May start a new thread in the reloading section for that though. Will link when I do.
 
I may also pull a round apart and see if I can figure out what's in it.
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That's pretty much a waste of time. Unless the maker tells you what they used there's no way to know with certainty. Similar LOOKING powders can be drastically different, and the big ammo companies deal in powder batches in the tons weight range, mixing and blending until they get the results they want, and much of the time, that's different from identical looking cannister grade reloading powder.

Simply put, no matter what it looks like, you can't KNOW for sure what it is and the makers often use stuff we can't get.
 
There was a gunzine article about a police department that ordered up a batch of service ammo. Ordinary stuff like bullet weight and velocity were specified. But not flash retardant. The new stuff fired indoors or in low light had a bright flash, much more than the old stuff. So they pulled down a round of each, and sure enough the new order had a larger charge of entirely different powder.

An article on match shooting with the AR described the AMU ordering factory match .223 by the pallet. When an order came in, they would pull a bullet. If it uncovered Ball powder, they relegated it to the 200 and 300 yard events; ammo loaded with extruded powder was saved for 600 yards.

So even if you did pull a bullet and see something familiar, it doesn't mean you will get the same thing next time.
 
Gosh, I have put so many rounds down range over the years it would be hard to count. But I have never shot +P+.
Nor do I ever intend to and will avoid if humanly possible. Now if it is the end of the world and the Zombies are coming and that is the only ammo I have, Yes I will use it, and pray I do not tear up the gun I happen to have.
 
That was kinda my thoughts. Wanted to shoot a cylinder worth to see where they hit with my 38 snubbie. Then save it and hope to never have to use it. I know my 357 will handle it if need be , but is also a 6in hunting gun, something for woods carry only

Option 2 is pull the bullets, dump the powder and save the primed brass and bullets to reload.I feel silly pulling factory ammo though, but it may be the only good option...
 
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I've shot plenty of +P+ 9mm from several different pistols...none had any problem with it, or showed any I'll effect.
Mainly Winchester Ranger 127gn, and Federal 115gn BPLE.
 
Option 2 is pull the bullets, dump the powder ...
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I'd say that goes beyond silly, all the way to dumb.
If you were desperately short of .38 Spl brass and there was no other choice, then its a maybe,,, otherwise, its foolish, I think.

It's factory ammo, there's nothing wrong with it. If it's not suitable for your gun, go with

Option 3 sell or trade, or just give it to someone who can use it.
 
Some years ago I chronographed some Federal .38 +P+. I can't remember the bullet weight, etc. but do recall velocity was unimpressive. If velocity is any indication of pressure, that ammo was not hot at all.

FWIW, I have used quite a bit of Federal 9mm +P+ 9BPLE 115 grain and Winchester 115 and 127 grain 9mm +P+ in a variety of firearms. I was never able to detect any premature wear, and certainly no breaking, bending, deforming, etc. of component parts due to use of +P+ ammo. As most know, this ammo is most often sold on contract to LE agencies. Within my humble experience in LE, departments do not tend to buy items suspected of prematurely wearing or damaging equipment, or being dangerous to personnel and public. In any case, due to my own experience with major US manufacturer +P+ ammo, I am comfortable in it's use in quality, properly maintained firearms........YMMV

Interestingly perhaps, the CorBon 9mm ammo I've used, rated as only +P, routinely produced velocities as high or higher than any Winchester or Federal +P+ ammo I've tested. So is CorBon +P at velocities as high or higher than +P+ OK, while +P+ at lower velocities a problem?

I should mention that the CorBon I tested was produced before the CorBon change of ownership, so I don't know what CorBon is like now days...
 
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