+P ? No thanks.

T

Tarcante

Inactive
A couple of weeks ago, I finally bought my first revolver, a S&W 637 model. Just before leaving, the clerk asked me: "Are you going to buy ammo Sir?

What would you recommend? I said. He just grabbed a box of 125 grains +P .38 spl. jacketed hollow points from under the counter and before he could open the box i said: no thanks, I am looking just for standard ammo.

So he came back - from under the counter - and this time he had a box of 110 grain +P lead semi wad-cutters. Again, before he could even open the box I said: no, thanks.

I visited four different gun shops that same day... I had the same experience. Every time I asked for .38 spl. ammo, I was first offered the +P version.

Obviously, I understand the +P will give you more kinetic energy, based solely on the velocity, not on the weight of the vector.

But, even in a snubby, doesn´t the 158 gr. .38 spl. (non + P) ammo, be enough for personal defense?
 
?+P

For home defense, I would never recommend +p for reasons of over penetration.

158gr SWC at "normal" velocity is fine. I use 140 gr truncated hard cast in my S&W snubby.

I have no reason why they are pushing +p's, especially for a snub nose wheel gun.
 
I would never trust my life to such a weak and wimpy load as most factory +P. Mainstream ammo makers load it with a 125 JHP at 925 FPS. This sound hot to anyone? Warm? It's a mild target load in my book. When I packed a 38 the ammo was a 125 JHP loaded to 1150 FPS clocked from a 4" revolver.

There is a huge myth surrounding +P that makes Area 51 and the Loch Ness Monster seem reasonable by comparison. In 1973 +P was created to give the ILLUSION of powerful ammo. It was a giant marketing success...maybe too successful given the fact that I have heard numerous owners of 357 Magnum revolvers ask if 38 +P was too powerful for their guns. ROTFLMAO.

Now will follow the customary slew of posts about how I am all wrong...how +P really is a hot load...how S&W warns against using it...all nonsense.

Here...

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html
 
I carried the same gun for years and I almost always carried +P ammo. Many will agree that the best ammo for SD in a snub nose is the Gold Dot 135gr +P "Short Barrel" load. Its very consistent, meaning good expansion/penetration, because it is a very well designed round. Part of the design is the +P factor and it seems to help. It's not the most pleasant round to shoot out of a 15oz gun but its not the worst either. That's not to say that I would not carry or trust standard pressure ammo, to the contrary. Either way, the most important thing is that you have the gun on you and with a 637 there is no excuse ;)
 
The only reason I've got P+ in my carry gun is that's all the store had in a HP when I got them, and I really don't think it's that big of a deal one way or the other. I pretty much agree with Saxon Pig in thinking P+ is just marketing hype anyway.
 
+P as loaded by the major brands is not loaded hot. It's just not quite as wimpy as the low pressure stuff.
The 125 gr jhp +P would be my choice over any 158 gr lead roundnose or light cowboy load or fmj.
 
.38 Specials aren't barn burners

Slap standard velocity 158 loads into a 2" or less barrel and performance will be an issue. For a defensive handgun I think the +P is a good choice. Just make sure you shoot enough of them to get a feel for how they operate in your weapon.
 
Nobody addresses this topic as well as Saxon Pig. And I agree with him 100%. I have done a lot of reading on the old 38 special loads and the 158gr loads were going well over 900fps. They had to to be a step up from the 38 long colt that they replaced. The long colt shot a 150gr bullet at 750fps from a 6" barrel. And Saxon is the only other person besides myself that I have ever seen mention the S&B load with a 158gr bullet getting 950fps and is not listed as a +P load.
 
Now will follow the customary slew of posts about how I am all wrong...
Click to expand...

You won't get any disagreement from me SaxonPig.

Tarcante: Try not to get too wrapped up in "+P." In the modern lexicon, it basically just means that the ammo is on the high pressure end of the spectrum. It's really meaningless when you come down to it. For any defense application, I would recommend "+P" rated ammo for 38 Special.

38 Special is not a potent cartridge to begin with (it seriously pales in comparison to 357 Magnum, for instance). That is not to say 38 Special is unsuitable for defense; but I would recommend getting ammo on the potent side of the spectrum - which in the 38 Special world, is referred as "+P."
 
I've been shooting +P's in my New Model Vaquero.357, 4 3/4"
What a great load! Totally right on with the Vaquero's fixed Sights @ 21 Ft.
Low recoil
lots of suds, and many deadly bullet shapes and weights
The Vaquero had some serious issues and got sent back to Ruger. almost everything except the Hammer was replaced and Hand fitted, sights filed to center and shortened
Essentially a total factory "tune" and custom fitting!
Great revolver1! I added custom stag grips who's
grooves are tricked out! In the Casting they make em fit your fingertips and help fill everything in to your hand!
Best $60 I ever spent!
I have 2 holsters for it, a strong side Mexican made belt holste W/ Basket weaving, and a sweet Oklahoma Leather Vertical Shoulder holster. I like the belt holster, the gun can't fall out!
I bought a 1880's crossdraw that sits on a large back leather pad with a belted Slim Jim strapped on.
The holster looks neat but the cylinder area is kinda large and the gun always feels loose in it.Just a pretty Cowboy rig...
Back to the +P's Never in my Model 36 and never in my Model 10 no matter what they say.
Plain .38's WORK and work well if ya can shoot.
Have fun!
 
ummm... I think it depends...

on the gun, on which ammo, on the "type" of shooting you do...

I'd personally still could get the warm fuzzys from non +P ammo, if the bullet used was something I like...

I don't personally like 357 magnum for CCW because of the muzzle blast... if +P 38's are hot enough to be as loud... I'd steer clear... if they don't have too much muzzle blast I'd be happy to use them...

I did carry a 4" 357 for years, around the farm, for dispatching farm pests... & I did notice that the lighter faster bullets stopped farm yard pests much faster than slower heavier bullets... even though in general, I prefer bigger bullets at a slower velocity, with a .357 / .358 bullet diameters I prefer faster lighter bullets, as they have been more effective at critters I've shot over the years, than the 158's

with 38 special, you're likely to have better results with the 110's - 125's at a higher velocity
 
I also carry the Gold Dot 135gr +P "Short Barrel" load as my carry loads. I reload all my other 38 ammo but like to carry the "factory ammo" as my self defence load. It has good reviews everywhere I have read and has good expansion.
 
And Saxon is the only other person besides myself that I have ever seen mention the S&B load with a 158gr bullet getting 950fps and is not listed as a +P load.
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Sellier and Bellot does indeed list a non +P 158 grain LRN with a muzzle velocity of 997 fps but they also note that the test barrel length is 7.5 inches, not 4 inches. Just comparing published muzzle velocities is meaningless without including things such as test barrel length. S&B typically uses a longer test barrel.

They also show soft point and fmj loads at 158 grains with muzzle velocities of 889 fps from the same 7.5 inch test barrel.
 
Back to the OP's statement.

You should be thanking those salesmen for at least trying to give you a reasonable load. +P 38 ammo from most makers is a joke when it comes to power levels.

If you want some real powerful ammo, get some pre 1960's vintage 38 ammo and shoot it. I shot some 1940's vintage 38 special 158 LRN's that did 838 FPS out of a 6.5" and 803 FPS out of a 5".

Vintage ammo seems to be the best way of getting powerful 38 Special ammo from "name brand" makers. Another way is get some of the Boutique brands like Buffalo Bore and then have some fun with what used to make the 38 "special!".
 
Originally posted by Magnum Wheel Man:

ummm... I think it depends...

on the gun, on which ammo, on the "type" of shooting you do...

I'd personally still could get the warm fuzzys from non +P ammo, if the bullet used was something I like...
Click to expand...


Kinda where I'm at. While I can shoot .38+p from my steel .357s all day long, from the alloy framed Airweight model 637 like the OP has, if they really are legitimate +p, they can be stingers and not pleasant to shoot. My SD ammo in my 637 are handloads running right at the cusp of standard and +p. They are accurate, reliable and give me a quick follow up shot. At SD/HD distances, out of the 1 7/8'' barrel, I do not feel I am giving up anything but maybe 40-50fps.

I hunt with revolvers and use .357s, .44s and .460 mags. All with legitimate hunting ammo. I am not recoil shy. But even in them, my quest is not for the fastest load out there, but the most accurate. In every case, the most accurate load out of those firearms is not the one with the highest velocity. Even the highest velocity +p round is not effective if it or the shooter using it is not accurate. Accuracy with a handgun comes from practice with it, not the velocity stated on the box of ammo. If the firearm and the ammo used is not pleasant or comfortable to shoot at the range, odds are practice and accuracy will suffer.......greatly.

If the OP is not comfortable shooting +p outta his Airweight snubby, he should not be condescended for it. He will not be anymore at risk using a milder bullet he is accurate with and feels comfortable shooting than a bullet with relatively little more velocity that he has neglected to practice with. There also is no reason he cannot regularly practice with standard .38 ammo and then occasionally shoot the +p to make sure it prints the same before carrying it ED.
 
To go along with what Saxon said, I was always led to believe that the .38 Spl +P loading came about as a result of the backlash of police officer using something marked "Magnum"
 
To go along with what Saxon said, I was always led to believe that the .38 Spl +P loading came about as a result of the backlash of police officer using something marked "Magnum"
Click to expand...

It's a nice story but not in the neighborhood of what actually came about.

+P was created by SAMMI...

http://www.saami.org/

the firearms and munitions manufacturing group. Membership in the group is voluntary and the major manufacturers dominate it and agree to abide by the standards set.

The standards for handguns...

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/specifications/Velocity_Pressure_CfPR.pdf

SAMMI was looking to establish standards for load pressures for ammo that could be used across the board and that were reliable. The same for testing velocities, etc. So in the early 70s IIRC operating pressures and maximums were set for commercial ammo. Those above that were marked +P, even if only a little above that and even if they were less powerful than some older loads.

You'll notice that SAMMI lists only 4 official +P handgun loads; 38 spl.+P, 9mm+P, 38 Super Automatic Colt +P, and 45acp+P.

When you run across other rounds listed as +P it's because the manufacturers are not members of SAMMI and call the rounds +P for marketing reasons.

tipoc
 
tipoc said:
When you run across other rounds listed as +P it's because the manufacturers are not members of SAMMI and call the rounds +P for marketing reasons.
Click to expand...

So, therefore the +P+ loads you sometimes see for 9x19 and .38 Spl are just marketing hype?

Thanks for the (correct) info, that was just something I'd always heard.
 
No not just hype. Buffalo Bore and others do load the rounds hotter, closer to the maximum safe pressures and maybe a touch above that sometimes. Listing the ammo as +P and +P+ is their way of marketing a particularly hot load.

Look at the bullet weight and velocity figures to see what they are doing.

SAMMI doesn't list +P+ but that doesn't mean that a manufacturer isn't pushing the round hotter than SAMMI recommends.

Most of the majors don't go that high in pressures out of a variety of concerns.

tipoc
 
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