+P and +P+ experiences requested

D

Dusty Rivers

New member
I keep reading about the magic round improvement of the 9MM +P+.
Does the recoil go up with +P+?
Do the barrels suffer from +P+?
What do the gun manufactures think of the use of +P+

This is not about any specific caliber so lets not go down that rabbit trail if possible. I only use the 9MM as an example

Thoughts of those who use or have actually used +P and +P+ ammo in any caliber?? .
 
+P+ only signifies that the round is hotter than +P. SAAMI does not have any standards for +P+ so it can basically mean whatever the ammo manufacturer wants it to mean. From what I can tell +P+ is typically 10% hotter than +P which itself is usually 10% hotter than regular ammo. +P+ isn't going to blow up any guns that can handle +P loads but you are definitely going to accelerate the wear.

Higher pressure is going to cause more recoil assuming everything else is equal.

I wouldn't worry about the barrel as much as I'd be concerned about battering the slide, frame, and other moving components of the gun.

A brief online search would indicate that manufacturers will void the warranty if +P+ ammo is used. Other than the warranty aspect I don't think manufacturers care about what a private individual does to their own gun.

I'd concerned about shooting even 100's of rounds of +P+ through any of my guns. 100 or 200 might be safe and assuming everything functions I guess you could use that round in a carry gun, but accuracy and manageable recoil are also important.
 
1. ALL 9MM pistols have piddlin' recoil anyway, with ANY loading.
2> ALL the gun companies, and lots of other manufacturers, make new BBL's by the boxcar full everyday.
3. ALL OF THE GUN MANAUFACTURERS hope and pray you NEVER EVER NEVER shoot their guns in the first place. ....you might hurt yourself and sue 'em !!!
4. ALL the socalled +P+ loadings in any caliber are of no real consequence to ANY of the common pistols thet might be used in.
I know of a S&W J-frame 38 that shot 10M +P+ 38 loads and all it did was make it the smoothest 38 snub you ever shot.
AND so it goes...
 
I can't recall ever shooting any +P+ in anything. Most of my shooting has been done with my handloads. Any in many cases, my handloads exceed the performance of +P ammunition, and likely even safer than the factory +P stuff.

Bob Wright
 
Ive shot a good bit of +P, and +P+ ammo out of a number of different guns, and never saw an issue. With some of the older guns, it might be, but with most of the current guns, I dont think it would be an issue.
 
I've been shooting and carrying Winchester Ranger T 127gr +p+ rounds for years and years. My local police department carries the same load as well.

The guns that I've ran them through have been Glock 19s, a Glock 17, a P226 & P229, as well as a few others. No issues whatsoever. Very manageable.
 
by the time you shoot enough +P+ ammo in a gun to wear it out, you'd have spent enough to buy three or more guns.
 
While it may well be true that the extra wear and tear on a pistol induced by +P+ loads of reputable manufacturers is negligible, I don't use them, and I would never consider buying +P+ loads at a gun show. The +P+ designation, to me, means that it exceeds +P pressures with no upper limit. They are "trust me" loads. (And folks should also realize that for some calibers +P standards do not exist, so in those calibers +P means the same thing.)

No gun manufacturer is going to say that there is no upper limit on pressures for their guns. You use that sort of ammo at your owner risk. I choose not to, but lots of people do so.
 
I keep reading about the magic round improvement of the 9MM +P+.
Click to expand...

In what ways? None that I'm aware of.

Does the recoil go up with +P+?
Click to expand...

Of course it does. More muzzle velocity and likely greater powder charge mean more free recoil energy. It's basic physics. Whether the difference is enough for you to perceive is another issue only you can answer.

Do the barrels suffer from +P+?
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Of course, but the difference is likely de minimus for a typical user who carries +P+ and only fires enough such rounds to prove them functional in gis gun.

What do the gun manufactures think of the use of +P+
Click to expand...

I'm unaware of any gun manufacturer that sanctions the use of +P+ ammo. When you think about it, to do so would be foolish, because there are no standards (upoer pressure limits) for such ammo. What does your owner's manual say?

In choosing defensive handgun ammo you want a round that feeds reliably, and penetrates adequately while, ideally, expanding reliably. Most premium JHPs (eg, Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, Hornady Critical Defense) will do these things in service calibers. Check terminal ballistics performance -- published by the manufacturer or by independent testers on the internet -- to make sure you the round you are considering carrying penetrates adequately (eg, at least 12.0 inches in calibrated bare, 10% ballistic gel per the FBI, or 12.5 inches per the IWBA), and expands well. For 9 Luger, the heavier the bullet the better the performance in general. It is not uncommon to see light-bullet +P and +P+ rounds that fall short in penetration, because the faster velocity increases expansion, and expansion retards the most important aspect of terminal ballistics, penetration.

I think +P+ is a marketing gimmick meant to seduce gun owners than to stop bad guys.
 
I have shot a lot of 9mm +P ammo. I have avoided +P+ because it voids the warranty for many pistols.

Since there are no real specifications for loading of +P+ ammo, most manufacturers will recommend not using it in their pistols. That is true at least for all six of the pistols I currently own.

As far as 9mm Luger +P ammo is concerned, the increase in case pressure over standard pressure loads is about 10%. Increases in case pressure over standard for .45 ACP is about the same. 38 Special +P loads increase case pressures by around 17%.

Not surprisingly, for 9mm Luger the +P loads typically result in roughly 10% increases in muzzle velocity. I have not noticed any huge difference in recoil characteristics for +P loads in 9mm, 38 Special, or .45 ACP but I would say there is at least a perceptible increase in perceived recoil.

I think there are two instances in which +P loads carry a significant benefit. One is 38 Special +P for lightweight .357 Magnum revolvers or 38 Special revolvers in which shooting Magnum loads is either not an option, or is unpleasant and/or difficult to control. Standard pressure 38 Special ammo leaves a bit to be desired in terms of muzzle velocity (especially when shot out of snub barreled revolvers). For at least some ammo manufacturers, the +P loads bump the muzzle velocity of the 38 Special up to about par with 9mm loads with comparable projectile mass making JHP ammo more likely to reliably expand and adequately penetrate.

The other situation is subcompact 9mm pistols in which the potential muzzle velocity is never reached before the projectile leaves the short barrel. With barrel lengths of 3" or less, the +P JHP loads can result in significantly more reliable expansion.
 
In 9mm, I've shot and carried a couple of different +P+ loadings, Winchester Ranger 127 gr T-Series, Federal 115 gr Hi-Shok, and Hirtenberger 100 gr JSP to be exact. Recoil is typically slightly greater, but not to the point of being unpleasant. Muzzle blast is typically the most noticeable difference, particularly with the Federal Hi-Shok.

I, personally, am comfortable with shooting limited amounts of specific +P+ loadings in certain guns. By limited amounts, I mean enough ammo to establish that the gun will be reliable with it and perhaps rotating out older boxes of ammo when they're replaced with new boxes. I also will only shoot it in guns of known good quality and strength such as my CZ-75B and S&W 639, you would not catch me shooting +P+ ammo in a gun of questionable quality or a very old gun. Finally, I will only shoot specific +P+ loadings such as the Winchester, Federal, and Hirtenberger that I mentioned before. I've done enough research on these loadings to know that they were specifically designed by reputable manufacturers to be used by police in handguns. You will not catch me shooting the military-surplus +P+ ammo that was likely made for submachine guns or Bubba's super-duper +P+ ammo that he loaded in his garage and sells at the gun show.
 
+P +P+

This discussion had me go look at my reloading manuals.
The 38SPL and the 38SPL+P listing are the only ones I find. None of my manuals have +P for 9mm?
While I can see various 'Ruger Only' listings not one is called '+P'.
This just makes me even more curious.
:confused:
 
Standard pressure 9x19mm ammunition is loaded to a maximum case pressure of 35,000psi per SAMMI standards, which is the same as for .40 caliber S&W.

9x19mm +P ammo is loaded to a maximum case pressure of 38,500 psi, an increase of exactly 10% over that of standard pressure 9mm Luger.

I don't reload so I can't tell you exactly how much more powder that requires.
 
+P is the rating given by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute. "An association of the nation's leading manufacturers of firearms, ammunition and components. SAAMI was founded in 1926 at the request of the federal government and tasked with:

Creating and publishing industry standards for safety, interchangeability, reliability and quality

Coordinating technical data

Promoting safe and responsible firearms use."

SAAMI +P amunition is perfectly safe, and reasonable to use in modern firearms rated by it's manufacturer for +P. If you want to get a little more performance out of you 9MM, and it shoots +P accurately, and most importantly reliably, it is a good choice. If you aren't happy with the performance of your 9MM with +P ammo, you bought the wrong gun. You should have gotten a 40 S&W, 45acp, or 10MM.
 
Hi Dusty,

Is the a reason you want to use +P and +P+ loads? You might be able to get results you're after with standard 9MM loads.

For non-law enforcement self-defense, standards 9MM loads ought to work. For target shooting, I'd go with least recoiling loads.
 
Info on ME (muzzle energy in foot-pounds) range from korabrno.cz , link no longer works. 9mm 270-440. 9mm +P 384-465. 9mm +P+ 410-439. 45ACP 245-421. 45ACP +P 494-573. 45ACP Super 674-732. 9 is loaded with overlap while 45 has none.
 
Primer backflow causing jams occurred on a S&W .38 640 with some +P+ ammo. Absolutely no problem with the same ammo in the .357 version of the 640.

I did not understand what was going on until Ayoob wrote an article about it stating that the "Bushing" on the .38 640 was different than that on the .357 640 and that this allowed the primer backflow to occur. This was many years ago and technical specs may have changed.

I have also had +P+ ammo cause a revolver jam when using +P+ ammo in a S&W 442 Centennial (Yeah, I like Centennials) due to "kinetic pulling" of the bullet. Meaning the gun recoiled so hard that the bullet started coming out of the case causing the OAL of the round to be so long it would not allow the cylinder to rotate.

Never had any issues with semis and +p or +P+ round.

As always your milage may vary and I could be wrong.

NukemJim
 
I've fired some +P and +P+ 9mm and +P .38 Specials over time. In fact, my stand-by magazines for my 9mms are loaded with Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+. They clocked the advertised 1270-fps from the G-17 I used to have and I doubt they're going much slower in my G-19.

Honestly, if it's a caliber that has a SAAMI +P rating, in a modern service-type firearm, I'll happily shoot +P. As was said earlier, if you can afford enough of this type of ammunition to wear a pistol out, you've spent well beyond the value of a replacement pistol doing it. I'd also be happy to fire +P+ .38 Special out of a .357 Magnum chambered cylinder and don't have any hesitation using +P+ 9mm out of a Glock, H&K or several other current manufacture semi-auto pistols. (To note, my favorite 9mm range ammo is NATO-spec, which is generally accepted to tread at the upper end of SAAMI pressure spec to into +P.)

However I absolutely would NOT shoot anything advertised as "+P" in any round without an SAAMI +P standard. This would include the .32 ACP, .380 ACP, 10mm, .40 S&W and others that I've seen advertised with +P from boutique ammo manufacturers. While we enjoy flirting with the idea that we are so much smarter than the engineers and technicians (who have proper testing equipment) and they're just being conservative, I like to think that the folks in white lab coats actually know what they're doing and heed their guidelines.
 
This is from the Ruger SR series manual.
bd92258df441446e688f5527a7b160f5.jpg
 
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