P-38 or Luger?

???

I have not had any problems with my P.38's staying together. My AC41
First Variation, my AC43, my 100 Year Anniversary Model, and my 1978 P1 all have had many hundreds of rounds through them with no problems. I have spoke with many other collectors/shooters of the P.38 that have never mentioned this problem in the past.

I also have not had any galling problems with my P1. The rails look just as good now as they did when I bought it almost four years ago. Same for the Anniversary Model. The galling or cracking problems of the alloy frame must not have been too severe. Why would Walther have waited almost twenty years to modify the frame to accept the steel pin? This was incorporated in 1975 on the P4, (and later on the P.38 and then appeared on the P5 in '78) over twenty years after the alloy frame was introduced in '54. I've also not had any galling occur on my P5.

In addition, I have found that all four of my P.38's/P1 are very accurate and 100% reliable with factory 124gr ball. Most of the accuracy problems can be traced to the DA trigger that weighs in at an incredible 18Lbs on some war-time examples. The postwar P.38's and P1's had a somewhat lighter trigger, but still heavy by todays standards. 12 to 15 Lbs is not uncommon.

It takes some trigger practice to accurately shoot some of these handguns. You don't go out and shoot a 2" group at 25 yards with a P.38 your first time out, but it has been done.
 
My experience is with WWII variety P38 and WWI variety P08. The P08 was more accurate but the P38 won me. Now that’s one cooool pistol. :cool:
 
Another ??? (As in WTF are you talking about?)

If you're gonna buy a P-08 Luger to shoot vs. sit there and appreciate in it's glass display case, then do yourself a favor and invest in a little bit of preventative maintenance, then pay attention to what the gun needs for ammo.

I had Mr. John Martz (arguably THE most knowledgeable Luger person in these United States, bar none, guess who built those custom .45 ACP Lugers so often pictured in American Handgunner?) go through my 1918 DWM/VOPO/Stalingrad capture Luger, and rebarreled it with at 6" Navy-type tube. A Wolff P-08 tune-up spring kit went into it, and the feed ramp was polished. John chided me in advance for firing anything other than good-quality 115gr FMJ, preferably Winchester, in the gun. He uses the Winchester 115gr stuff to test out the Lugers he works on, as a matter of fact. To this day, I've run nothing but 115gr FMJ loads, at first Winchester White Box, now mostly my own handloads atop of 4.0gr of WST, through my toggletop, with nary a hiccup.


The gun gets fired almost every weekend, and is the one pistol that my girlfriend will choose if she wants to do some serious 25-yard target work. Tiny sights, yes, I tried to get her to shoot my S&W Model 52, but for her the feel of the Luger makes up for it.

The P-08 Luger is a great gun to collect, but an even more fun gun to shoot. I absolutely refuse to stay away from mine... :D
 
I've got both a P-08 (S 42, factory rearsenaled, non-matching, with a badly pitted barrel) and a late WWII (French-made) P-38 (SVW-45) in near perfect condition.

The Luger will shoot rings around the P-38. Both can be troublesome, and parts can be difficult to find sometimes. But I much prefer the Luger to the P-38.

(My Luger is one of the more accurate 9mms I have, despite the crappy barrel. But the sights are horrid. Even if it shoots straight, the burden is on you to work extra hard to get it to do so.)

For a fun gun, do the P-08. Better yet, do both...
 
Great post! I just saw the Guns of WWII on the History Channel. They discussed the luger and the walther P-38. They said that the Luger is the most natural pointing handgun ever made, but that the P-38 was better with specific design characteristics to address problems.
 
P38 or Luger?

Herr Walther I will have to both agree and disagree with you.
First the agreement. I too have a Walther p5. It is a very different weapon than the P1. It solid top slide is much heavier resulting in a lot less rearward velocity. Its barrel configuration is also different due to the fact that it is supported in the front. I believe the combination of these two factors has resulted in no frame wear even though I have about a thousand rounds through the weapon.
Second, the disagreement. I have looked at and shot a lot of P1's and I have always, always found frame wear on the P1. Any that do not have frame wear have not had very many rounds fired through them. Without the steel pin through the frame that is found in much later models there is no way that the frame will not suffer severe damage from the locking block. The block literally starts to eat up the aluminum frame every time it bangs against it and no amount of lubrication will help slow it down. This is exactly why Walther had to install the steel pin on the later models. They did not do this just to give their enginneers a bit of overtime work to keep them occupied. It had to be done if the P38 was to remain marketable. W.R.
 
P-38 or luger

In response to the History Channel 4 hour special on WWII weapons. I watched it and had some good laughs. There were many inaccurate statements made about many of the weapons. It makes you wonder how knowledgeable some of these so called experts really are about the weapons they were talking about. Someday when I have time I will replay it and take notes and have fun trashing a lot of what they said. I do not mean to sound arrogent but I am sure there were also a lot of you that caught inaccuracies in some of their statements made about some of the weapons especially the German MG34 and MG42.
The statement about the luger is partially true. It is a naturally pointing handgun but that does not in any way make it a good combat or target gun. A good target pistol is not heavier in the butt but heavier in the barrel. Front end heavier enables the shooter to hold the gun steadier and a good trigger pull certainly is of paramount importance to shooting good groups or hitting what you are aiming at. The luger has none of the above mentioned attributes. W.R.
 
I understand about the pin modification and thank you for your reply.
If this was such an issue about the frame wear with the locking block slamming into it upon recoil, why did they wait 20 years for the mod?

Had they not seen enough rounds fired through the P.38/P1 to see the eventual wear? I think they should have kept the steel frame. The alloy is fine for the P5 and P88 because of design differences.

Wish I could find a NIB All-Steel Classic. Big $$$.

Regards,

Michael
 
The Wild Romanian has posted some serious misinformation on the Luger loads.
The bullets used in 1914-18 were 124 grain and the recoil springs used in the P.08 were 36#weight.
I refer the Romanian to Wilson's 1935 book "Textbook of Automatic Pistols", page 240.
Any Luger with original parts will function with factory ball loads flawlessly if everything is in synch. Modern factory loads are hotter than factory loads of 30 years ago. These older loads were to accommodate the Glisenti pistol, and were loaded to proof for that monstrosity, which will chamber, but not safely fire, 9mm parabellum cartridges.
If you have doubts, consult a Luger specialist. I don't mean collectors. I mean pistomsmiths who understand the action. Over the yers many "collectors" have put ad-lib parts in Luger pistols and these must be discovered and changed before you can expect reliability. But, blame the collectors, not the pistol.
The P-38 is a second rate pistol that in its military configuration can be extremely dangerous. I refer you to an article in the February, 1946 American Rifleman magazine. Just because your buddy has never shot off his foot with his, does not make it a safe pistol. Indeed, the victim is usually an innocent bystander, since the decocker is the weak part. I have had two broken ones come through my shop...not a large number, but very significant if it a member of your family you have shot through a part failure.
 
The article cited in American Rifleman may contain some erroneous info, too.

The guys on the Curio & Relics list, a number of them VERY knowledgeable about the P-38 and guns of that era, some of whom have shot hundreds of P-38s, say the article about the P-38 being fundamentally unsafe is simply wrong.

That one article has become the equivalent of an urban myth; its message won't die despite a lot of evidence to the contrary.

That said, I personally don't trust the P-38 decockers, and mmy gun is ALWAYS pointed downrange when I use the decocker. I much prefer the P-08.

The P-38, as a military gun, was far better -- and much less susceptible to malfunctions when not kept pristinely clean.
 
This is my OPINION so bear with me: There has never been a Walther pistol that has been well designed or built that I have seen. Sexy, yes. Performing, no.

I have handled many P38s and owned one PPK which I quickly sold. Apologies to you Walther lovers but I ain't one of em. I have no idea how thay have stayed in business with the non performing stuff they produce.
 
P-38 or luger

to John Lawson:
John in all seriousness your book is all wet. Refer to the American Rifleman January 1981.
The 121 grain bullet was first intended for the various new submachine guns that were coming into use at the tail end of WW1. The luger then had to be adapted to this more powerful loading. Also refer to "The Luger Book by Joh Walter".
As far as your statements in regards to using factory ammunition. I am reporting on real life experiences at my shooting range over a period of 35 years. I have seen a few and I mean damn few lugers work with factory ammo. I have seen many , many fail to function with factory ammo and again it was not because it was underpowerd (an urban legend), more often it was because it was too hot. The luger was designed to work for the German ammunition that it was designed to shoot and deviating from this especially with older guns even if they still have all of their orginal parts is just plain asking for a jam every other shot.
I repeat to all those thinking about buying a luger. They are a beautifully made gun and have great looks and are a great investment and are very accurate but as a shooter they are truely the stinker of the gun world. W.R.
 
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Rom:
I wonder why you refuse to divulge your superior sources of misinformation. Who, exactly, wrote the Rifleman article? (Chuckle, snort!)
The Germans made some sintered iron loads in WW-II, but the standard issue loads in WW-I (I have pulled more than many "experts" have shot) were all 124 gr. fmj bullets ahead of what seemed to be Nobel powder. Not being a chemist, I cannot really be certain of the type.
As for your looking out onto a range and watching Lugers malfunction...did you ever bother to inspect them to determine WHY they malfunctioned? Of course not!
A P.08 pistol with all of the proper parts, properly lubricated, will function. Overloading it will not cause malfunction. Read that again, Rom. Heasvy loads do not cause malfunction. The reason is that the action does not begin to open until pressure has dropped to zero. You can confirm this by leaving off the extractor and picking the case out with a fingernail.
The 1946 article was absolutely correct, and, as I said, two of these broken decockers have come through my shop (I have specialized in Lugers for 50+ years.) I realize that I'm not credible in the face of all of the armchair experts, but I can make a Luger function reliably if some "expert" has not bunged it up beyond redemption.
The facts are: The Luger is a reliable, accurate pistol with either standard velocity ammo or +P ammo (which is similar to smg ammo.) If you drop by, you can try mine out on the range with both types of ammo. The ones that malfunction probably need a transfusion of springs or small parts. Don't blame the gun; blame neglect and ignorance of the action. Also, it is essential to use the proper lubricants and to always have the pistol lubed. That's why it was not a good infantry weapon in the mud of the Western Front. It worked just fine for the Navy, the Police and the air service.
The Walther Armee pistol was a superb pistol. When the Nazis cheapened the design for mass production, it ruined the basic premise of the design. The result is, most of them shoot into a 16" circle at 25 yards. Oddly, some of the "shortened" pistols with a front sight silver soldered to the slide were very accurate.
The reason is obvious.
If you would take the trouble to chronograph a few rounds of Remington fmj 9mm Luger from today's production, and a few from 30 year old production, you could save yourself some consternation. All of the BS in the world won't change the results.
 
P38 or Luger?

Hi Folks,

Egads, but it’s getting deep around here :-)

I’ve been a collector and a shooter of Lugers and P.38’s for over forty years now, and my experience has been a great deal more positive than some I’ve read here. In my experience....

A Luger in good mechanical condition will function just fine with any good quality commercial ball 9 mm Luger ammunition with a bullet weight of 115 grains to 125 grains. If you have a Luger that won’t, your Luger has a mechanical problem - most likely the magazine.

Lugers are generally superbly accurate. Luger triggers can be tuned. They are still used in competition in a number of European countries. In the 1950’s and 1960’s Wyatt Lugers in .45 ACP supplied stiff competition for fully tricked out 1911A1’s. The very fine (in the sense of small) sights on the Luger were designed for shooting at what American shooters consider long ranges. When my eyes were the same age as you average army recruit’s eyes, I had no problem kicking around a soda can at 100 meters with a Luger (or a P.38, or that matter). In my younger days I could hit a 55 gallon drum from five times out of six with an Artillery Luger- at a measure 565 yards.

P.38’s are some of the most durable pistols ever made. I have a couple of P.38’s I bought well used, and each has over 5,000 round through it. The only repairs made were regular replacement of recoil and hammer springs as preventive maintenance. Both are still going strong.

P.38’s almost *never* shed their slide covers without user error. If a P.38 owner takes his slide apart and does not get the slide cover back on properly it will come off - but that’s not the fault of the pistol.

My experience, offered entirely FWIW....

Best regards,

Kyrie
 
To Lawson: I guess we both agree to disagree due to our different experiences. I do have a question for you. If what you say is accurate then why has it been my experience in firing several near mint copies , one which was practically unfired, with various factory and reloads result in the same problematic jams. The guns were near new with no worn out parts but they still failed to function.
These pistols are very very strange and very problematic.. I have worked up loads that would go almost 40 rounds without a jam on one day and using the same pistol properly cleaned and lubricated with the same loads on another day would jam every other shot.
Most factory loads are not the correct overal length for this pistol. In fact even some german commercial loads I tried were seated way to short for proper functioning in the Luger pistol.

I have shot the war time P38's and although they are not as accurate as the luger most would shoot at least 4 o 5 inches at 25 yards not 16 inches. AS far as the safety is concerned it failed because when people lowered the hamer with the safety they did not ease it down but let it drop on its own inertia. The metal would eventually crystalize and break. Walther eventually did change the design of this safety. W.R.
 
I have a Luger that was worked-over by John Lawson (the OTHER top Luger guy in the U.S), and while mine's a .30 rather than a 9, it is both accurate and reliable. Of course, I don't do any torture-testing with it, but as long as I don't use bullets with exposed lead at the tip, the gun will go hundreds of rounds without a problem. The trigger can be a nightmare, but as my gun demonstrated to me, they can be "fixed" by someone who knows what they're doing. I don't see much romance in the P-38, but it would probably be cheaper to buy and maintain.
 
P-39 or luger

to John:

P.38’s almost *never* shed their slide covers without user error. If a P.38 owner takes his slide apart and does not get the slide cover back on properly it will come off - but that’s not the fault of the pistol.

Hey John, This has not been my experience at all. I currently have a brand new Walther P38 , commercial model that blew its top cover right off with very little use and using relatively mild ammunition in it. W.R.
 
Another ??????

Luger Reliability? How about 100% for my VOPO Rework, 1941 byf.

Accuracy? Even with the small sights, its 2 - 3 inch groups at 25 yards and the trigger, once you get used to the short pull is a joy.

Unless you drop these guns in the mud, use decent FMJ ammo and take care of the guns (good springs, lube, good magazine, etc.) they will be reliable and accurate.

Get a shooter while you can! $350 - $500 will get you a nice one.
 
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