Overpenetration: Real or Gun Rag Hype?

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I only saw two shootings with .45, but there were multiple shots.

I also want to make clear that I am NOT endorsing the use of FMJ ammo. I carry hollowpoints. I am just saying that if a hardball .45 that penetrates 30 inches of gelatin does not always punch through a man, then that just makes you wonder about the whole overpenetration thing.
I tend toward the deeper penetrating hollowpoints, but stick with the ones I think will expand, like the 200gr .45 Gold Dot, the 155gr .40 caliber Gold Dot and the 125gr .357 Sig/9mm Gold Dot. All midweight hollowpoints with good penetration but with enough velocity to expand. I just want to make clear that I am not saying everyone should use FMJ.
 
I have decided to use the same fmj for defense as for practice. An old timer I know does this and advised me to do the same for the following reasons:

That way the gun shoots consistantly to the same point of aim.
I have no reliability / feeding issues.
My guns function flawlessly with the fmj. I have not been able to afford to fire 200 rounds of any fancy defensive super duper ammo at $16 - $25 per 20 rounds.

I think missing is a bigger problem than over penetration.

Practice and shot placement are key.


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Master Blaster
 
If you are having reliability/feeding issues with JHP ammo or any other ammo for that matter, that is not an ammo problem. It is a problem with the pistol. If your pistol chokes on any type of ammo, it needs to be fixed. A pistol that chokes CCI Gold Dots can just as easily choke on FMJ ammo when TSHTF.
 
I was an EMT and police officer for 10 years (Department of Safety) and saw a few gunshot wounds. 12 gauage shotgun to the head was most lethal (suicides) but did have one live after such a shot. Just blew his face off and hit nothing vital. Also worked an attempted suicide with .22 rimfire into brain which survived with little more than severe headache. An attempted murder where wife shot her husband in the temple with .22 rimfire during night and he woke in the morning with headache, honestly did not know he had been shot! Suicide with a 28 gauge shotgun that severed the spinal column at the back of the throat. Murder with that same 28 gauge with three shots to the chest of his wife prior to his suicide. She lived much longer than he did. 40 SW gunshot wound to drug dealer through his chest and he died witin 15 minutes. 25 ACP through upper arm and into chest, died instantly. .357 magnum to the temple, died instantly. .357 magnum suicide into center of chest, survived. All of my expereince would leave me to believe that all gunshot wounds are a "crap shoot". Some of the most lethal calibers have preformed poorly while some "mousegun" shots have killed instantly. I don't believe that you can reliably predict results, too many variables involved. Stubby
 
I think Stubby is right on. There are so many variables in a real world shooting it is almost impossible to predict "stopping power" or penetration accurately. Think about all the possibilities: shot placement, angle of entry, distance from target, body style of perp(fat/thin/muscular), clothing worn by perp(large winter parka/t-shirt).

You can not pick the best caliber and/or bullet design(FMJ/JHP) for all the possible situations you may face. I think you should pick what you can shoot the best. If you can shoot very well with 38 wadcutters but can't hit a barn with a 45, go with the 38. Shot placement is the number one factor IMHO.

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God Bless America
 
Mike H; you posted <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...and also to hopefully produce 2 holes so that the critter "bleeds out" more quickly. This would seem to follow the methodology of using a large bore FMJ like a .45 for maximum penetration and potentially a double hole blood loss. This seems at odds with using JHP's which go for maximum damage in say 10 inches or so and max. internal bleeding at the risk of not penetrating major blood vessels that may lie slightly beyond their reach, as was the case with that infamos 9mm silvertip in the Miami shootout, so which is best and is there a real difference. Help I'm confused.[/quote]

Well, there is a lot of confusion on this subject, so don't feel bad. The fact of the matter is that while, in my professional opinion, punching an exit hole will certainly not be a bad thing, it is unlikely to really affect the BG's course. Most bleeding, and other damage that helps you, is internal, not external.

Consider the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami, to which you alluded above. The perp in question, named Platt, was shot with a 9mm Win Silvertip bullet early in the gunfight. This bullet hit his R arm just at the bend in the elbow. It severed his brachial artery and veins; arterial blood immediately began to spurt out, and continued to do so until his demise. The bullet then penetrated his chest wall, completely collapsed his right lung, severed pulmonary vessels such that 1300cc (nearly 3 pints) of blood was found at autopsy in his right chest. The bullet stopped just short of his vena cava. It had expanded nicely. Although Platt was shot several more times, NONE of the subsequent bullet wounds (the last few delivered at point blank range) were unsurvivable.

Despite this severe GSW, Platt lived for at least another 4 minutes, killing two and wounding several other FBI agents. He was the only seriously injured person on the scene to have vital signs, and the paramedics tried to resuscitate him!

If you would like to read the autopsy and reconstruction of the firefight yourself, go to: http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
and click on Tactical Brief #7 (July '98)

So, worried about causing internal bleeding or external bleeding? Doesn't matter. You can cause BOTH, as happened in this case, and still have a long firefight on your hands.

Blame the 'infamous' 9mm. bullet? Well, the FBI did just that, but I don't think you can ask much more of a bullet. If the agents had been armed with 10mm.'s, the situation might have been altered slightly, but IMPO, the real problem was the failure to inflict additional nonsurvivable wounds.

I repeat my advice: shoot the largest caliber you can shoot accurately, and put big holes through vital organs repeatedly until the BG goes down.

Hope this helps, Walt




[This message has been edited by Walt Welch (edited November 21, 1999).]
 
Hey Dan,

Sorry for the late reply, didn't mean to offend or annoy :-) with the firearms safety thing. It was just my way of stating that in my opinion, overpenetration isn't really an issue. I suppose I should have read your post a little closer, and realized that you are clued in, but there are those on the site that aren't always as aware as they should be of certain things.

That's ok, cause we're all here to learn and help each other, at least that's what we should be doing, anyways, never been shot, never shot anyone, and never seen anyone shot.

Cheers,

Chuck
 
Hunters benefit from external bleeding if it becomes necessary to "track" a wounded animal, also, if I'm correct. I guess a large blood trail could help capture a wounded felon, but who wants BG blood on the carpet. ;) I LOVE this forum. :D
 
I think it depends somewhat on the setting. If the perp is isolated and there are no other people around, it makes little difference what the penetration ability of the round is as far as danger to others is concerned.

However, in a situtation where MISSES can go through walls, windows etc. behind which there are people, the ability or non-ability of the round to penetrate a wall may be an issue.
 
High-Velocity means a flatter trajectory. Over-penetration is a side-effect of high velocity. That having being said here's what I think.

The trend over the past few years is for high capacity mags and high-velocity rounds.
All of this is an excuse to avoid the FUNDAMENTALS of shooting. There is a trend toward the basic "spray and pray" attitude regarding firearms.

My thought is that if you practice enough and become skillful enough in both MARKSMANSHIP and in TACTICS, then you don't need "high-velocity" rounds nor high capacity magazines.

There will be VERY few instances where a shooter is placed in a situation where he, or she, faces multiple opponets. So, if you have 2 rounds per target - assuming a maximum of 3 targets - and a couple extra rounds for misses, then 8-10 rounds should be all you need. Of course, carry an extra mag, just in case.

A "low-velocity" round on target is worth 100
"high-velocity" rounds that miss.

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Stand against evil, lest evil have its way...
 
A bullet that doesn't penetrate deeply enough to do the job at hand is a failure, period. Since it is impossible to anticipate or control all of the factors in a desperate situation that can limit an underpowered handgun bullet's performance, you must ensure that your load will penetrate deeply enough before the shooting starts. Anyone can test the effectiveness of their loads themself. Plastic freezer bags filled with water, in a box that holds them in position is a great way. Use swatches of various materials to simulate clothing and your in business. Water is not a human body but, this proceedure will allow you to compare different loads in the same medium.

Based on my experience, my defensive ammo has a bullet with alot of mass relative to its diameter. Hollowpoints are geat if you can get them to expand, and keep them from expanding so much that they don't penetrate(use heavy JHP bullets).

As a Bowhunter, I'll tell you that blood trail is only a secondary reason for wanting total penetration. The first reason is for a quick kill. Two holes and the destroyed tissue between them bleed more than one hole. A broadhead, just like a handgun bullet, stops its victim via blood loss.

While overpenetration is a concern, it should not be the primary concern. The primary concern is saving your life. That is the only legitimate reason for a citizen to use deadly force. If the situation is not so desperate that you have the luxury of considering overpenetration, or anything else except the immediate threat, then deadly force is probably not justified.
 
It is a very real issue for some. LASO killed an innocent bystander w a 147 JHP that went through a bad guy AND a glass door first.

AZ Highway patrol's old Rem 185 JHP in 45 exited bodies quite often (the new load pens less).

NYPD justified switch to JHPs based on dangers of overpenetration. Any reduction in exposure to liability/risk from police bullets is a good move to most city legal depts, and they often have more say than the firearms instructors. They now use the Gold Dot 124 +P (tried Rem 115 +P+, didn't work well in their Glocks).

From the NY Times:

In New York City during the last two years, seven of the bystanders shot by the police were struck by bullets that passed through other people.

The report released Thursday covers shootings from 1995 and 1996. Of the six innocent bystanders struck by hollow-point bullets fired by police officers in the Transit Bureau, one was hit by a bullet that ricocheted and another by a bullet that passed through an object. Of 15 bystanders shot by conventional, full-metal-jacket bullets, five were hit by bullets that had passed through another person and two by bullets that had gone through an object.

Forty-four police officers accidentally shot themselves or were accidentally shot by other officers over the same two years, according to the report. Of the 40 officers shot by full-metal-jacket bullets, two were hit by ricochets, 17 were hit by bullets that passed through other people and two were struck by bullets that passed through objects. Of the four police officers shot by hollow-points, one was hit by a bullet that passed through another person.

Fifty-six suspects were shot and killed by police officers over the last two years. Forty-one of them were killed by full-metal-jacket bullets, 14 of which passed through other people first and one of which first passed through an object. Fifteen others were killed by hollow-point bullets, four of which passed through other people first.

Haven't seen the latest report for 97/98.


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>>>>---->
 
NYPD doesn't exactly have a reputation for "knowing when and when not to shoot" anyway. Their so liberal about guns, I'm amazed that they were able to convince the politicians that the hollowpoints weren't going to inflict more unneccesary damage to the the killers and rapists than the FMJ's. What can you expect from a culture that only sees guns in the movies and hands of bad guys. They don't even allow their own police officers to carry off duty. Talk about cranial rectal inversion. They wrote the book on it. I think they all carry large chains around in their cars for this very purpose (pulling their heads out of their &^%$). Hillary will fit right in.

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Don't trust anything that bleeds for 5 days and doesn't die.
 
I just reread The Best Defense again for the umpteenth time - Reading the results from the various weapons used and the locations of the hits... You need A accurate shot placement. And B a .45 auto.

Thats all you need.

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey, have I mentioned my new book? It is called:
MEN ARE FROM MARS and WOMEN JUST NEED TO DEAL WITH IT!
 
Even with overpenatration I question whether the bullet would be lethal. I have been to several suicides and 2 homicides. I have not seen a pistol caliber exit and the suicides by rifle we found the bullet spent in the room. Not enough energy to penetrate the ceiling or walls anyway. Even a .270.
 
At the risk of sounding insensitive, I wholeheartedly agree with Oris. The subject of guns and bullistics vis a vis gunwriters and manufacturers is so full of hype that it would test the credulity of a science fiction author. The only way to sell new stuff to some people (e.g. Law Enforcement Agencies) is to claim the old is obsolete or flawed in some way. Witness the changeover from the old 38 revolver to the wundernines. A marketing scam of the first order which would make some soap or beverage companies green with envy. Defensive ammo is a solution to a non-existent problem, as Jeff Cooper would say.

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG



[This message has been edited by BigG (edited November 29, 1999).]
 
I posted this once before.. but I thought it might help..


some food for thought:

For a LONG time i hunted with remmington "bronze point" ammunition it's super accurate and my savage rifle seems to like this load (150 grain @2900 fps) the best. Its basically a hyrda shock for you rifle a deep hollow
point with a bronze nose cap/pin which is supposed to "penetrate" thick hide and deliver controlled expansion at long range. I ADORED this load.

After a few years of hunting and making neck shots i finally zapped an antelope in the body and the amount of destruction was incredible... like hitting it with a 7mm magnum or 300 winchester. the bullet literally vaporizes or exits the body mass on a cluster of fragments the size of a golf ball. Well you can see how.. in hunting applications THAT'S TOO MUCH damage and you waste a lot of meat. I got discouraged with the cartridge. So I talk to my local gun smith cause i still have 2 boxes of 180
grain bronze points for elk. He says the heavier bullets DON'T open up as fast (2700fps).

So i said what the hell and took the heavier bullets to Wyoming for an antelope hunt. I Smacked a big uncommon doe at a range of 50 yards and knocked her deaeder than snot. Only problem was THERE WAS NO ENTRY OR EXIT WOUND. I'm still scratching my head as to how at 50 yards with a 180 grain bullet and a standing broadside shot there was NO penetration AT ALL. We set down to cape her and the underside of her hide was bloodshot down the left side of her body and SEVEN ribs were
broken, Upon openining the body cavity ALL internal organs were intact and NO bullet fragments had entered the chest cavity. No clotted blood, no blasted bone fragments just seven broken ribs and a lump of bloody meat
on the OUTSIDE of the animal.

Now I understand the shot was STILL LETHAL, and you really DON'T NEED much gun to zap a pronghorn.. (most soft points go right through and you CAN kill two with one shot)but that bullet ABSOLUTELY FAILED. NO
Penetration. I had been carrying those 180's as ELK LOADS for 4 years,believing them to be BETTER than my federal 165 btsp's. If that had been an ELK I had shot It VERY LIKELY would have gotten away.

I switched back to home rolled sierra 165 grain spbt "game king" bullets (all on FORMER Bronze point brass) and have NEVER had a 165 game king bullet FAIL to penetrate. I don't expect my deer elk and antelope to be
hiding behind car doors and the like... but after that experience I doubt the bronze point would DO the job. You expect your hunting bullet to GO THROUGH your game animal so that you have a blood trail if it doesn't kill the game outright.

So what is BEST for two legged critters?? A high velocity frangible/wonderbullet that is NOT designed to penetrate ie a "varmint
round" or a heavy for caliber penetrator that is EXPRESSLY designed to go all the way through a "hunting round".

After this experience.. I wondered if we DO worry too much about "overpenetration"

That doesn't mean I'm using a 44 magnum for home defense... but it also means I'm not buying fancy "beehive" rounds for my 45.

Maybe I'm comparing apples to oranges since rifle and pistol velocites are VASTLY different....

But I thought you all might like to hear the info.

Dr.Rob
 
You can get The Best Defense from Amazon.com or from Barnes and Nobles... Most any large retailer should either have it or be aable to get it.
It is one of the REQUIRED READING books every shooter should have.
 
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