Overpenetration: Real or Gun Rag Hype?

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Dan

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Here's a question for our medical proffesional TFL members.

I, like many handgunners, for years have been following ammunition developement. The one thing that seems to always crop up in the heavy/slow vs. light/fast debate is overpenetration.

If you read Ed Sanow's articles in the rags, overpenetration seems to be a real problem. But, go to Firearms Tactical and they present a well written debunkment of the overpenetration problem.

What I want to know is... is it a real concern, or hype to push high velocity ammo?

So, this question is aimed at all the Paramedics, EMTs, Nurses and Physicians. Just what have you all seen in regards to this subject?

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Dan

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Since you brought up Ed Sanow, Chapter 16 of Handgun Stopping Power deals with ideal bullet performance. "Strict avoidance of overpenetration should be enforced only when the threat to a bystander is as certain and high as the threat to the shooter."
Also if you spend enough time at the Firearms Tactical site, or reading Marshall/Sanow you will find the best reason for choosing moderate penetrating ammo is you want bullet expansion where it will do the most damage to vital organs. The bullet can no longer add to "stopping power" after it exits the target.
 
Dan,

I'm no Doc, and I'd like to say it's common sense, but someone had to point out the following issues to me. I'd like to give credit, but I can't remember where I read, heard, or was told the following.

First, we are assuming that all of our shots under stress are going to hit the target. That is definitely the goal, but there is really no guarantee with combat stress, a dynamic (moving) subject, and our own ability to shoot factored in.

Second, even if all of our shots hit the bad guy, we still may have a "flyer" or even a shot that only penetrates and exits soft tissue.

Third, there are various commonly cited statistics that only 11-25% of officer's shots fired hit the target in a shootout. Another statistic I saw, is that the Firearms trainers at the FBI, expect no better than a 35% hit ration. Now these figures come from various gun rags, so I take them with a grain of salt, but look around and see how the majority of people shoot under controlled range conditions, and it's not so unlikely.

With all this, over-penetration to me is a non-issue. Lt Col Jeff Cooper's rule still stands: Always positivley identify your target and know what is behind it. I would not take a shot at a BG if my wife was behind him, even if I knew I had a "guaranteed to stop in the body" round.

Personally, I am much more concerned with how much a round penentrates (or overpenetrates) walls and doors. And to be honest, as far as handguns go, I'm not sure there's a big difference. Although, there is some interesting data to suggest that .223 for civilians and 5.56 for military penetrates less through walls than 9mm. Shotguns are another option (better?) for a home defense scenario.

Regards,

Chuck
 
Overpenetration is a real issue. Also the gunwriter trash and grandstanding over at firearmstactical, leaves me to believe that they don't know what they are talking about.
 
After much study, I believe the over-penetration issue to be a bit hyped.

Because of the elasticity of the outer skin, a bullet penetrating the exiting layer of skin is equivalent to penetrating four inches of flesh. That is why, if you study many shootings, so many end up with the bullet sitting just under the skin, on the opposite side of entry. Many bullets make it to the last layer of skin and stop there because they don't have the juice to exit that last layer of skin.

Think about it: First, you can add 4 inches to any penetration you think is too much. Look at the shallowest cross section of the torso and you've got about 8 inches of meat and bones. (Oh yeah, let's not forget about bones). Anyway, not even considering bones, on a perfect frontal shot, the bullet has to pass through at least 8 inches of meat minimum, and then exit the skin, which is another 4 inches. That is 12 inches of penetration before you have to worry about the bullet even exiting the body. And, let me remind you, that is a very MINIMUM standard. Many people are thicker than that, many criminals are often dense and muscular, that number also does not account for bones, and that is assuming a perfect frontal shot with no obstructions. In other words, that is a *very* basic and minimum number and only for a perfect frontal shot. Add any angle in there or obstructions and the needed penetration grows quickly. And, I don't know about you, but most of the places I aim on the body are surrounded by thick bone, which can slow a bullet even more.

Lastly on that issue, not only does the bullet have to have enough juice to exit the body, it then has to have enough juice to penetrate another body and deal serious damage to an innocent person! So, not only does it have to penetrate a *minimum* of 12 inches, but then it has to have enough juice left over after that to fly through the air and penetrate someone else another few inches at least, in order to hurt them.

Also, gelatin is not, and never was, considered to be equivalent to flesh. Gelatin testing just guves a reference point for how a round will perform relative to other gelatin tests. Just because a bullet penetrates 12 inches in gelatin, does not mean it will penetrate that deeply through someone's chest.

I just think the issue is over rated and is another reason to sell articles and test ammo (so you have to buy the latest ammo design).

I know for a fact as a former EMT that I have seen .45 hardball bullets NOT exit the body, multiple times. If hardball does not overpenetrate then I have good faith that most any .45 hollowpoint will not.

And yes, cops average hitting their target 1 out of 8 times (12.5%).
Seeing cops shoot, that is not a surprising fact. They are, overall, HORRIBLE shots. I mean, on the range, in the best conditions, they can't even hit a sillouette target at 7 yards much of the time. I mean, they miss the whole target! That is with no stress! I really think that the public, and departments, should DEMAND that Officers be more competent with their guns before they send them out on the street. It is a danger to the public, how bad most of them shoot.
And the thing is, not to bash them, but if they miss the target, the department gets sued, not them, so they don't have that much driving force to become better shots. There is no penalty to them personally if they miss and hit someone else, because the lawsuit goes right for the deep pockets of the department, not the underpaid cop.

Many overpenetrating cases sited are cases where the bullet passes through an arm, or a peripheral tissue, like 3 inches, and goes on to hit someone else. I have never heard of anyone that has hit COM and had a standard hollowpoint round (like .40) go through and hit someone else with serious effect. If the cases do happen, how often? What are the odds? Everything is an odds game, and unless the odds are significant that it could happen, then it is just not on the top of my list of concerns.

Now, this is assuming standard pistol rounds. When you get into the magnum rounds like the 10mm, then you better stick with the lighter bullet weights, because the 10mm with a 180gr bullet WILL go in and out of a person and still keep going with plenty of juice to kill another person.



[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited November 19, 1999).]
 
Thanks for the replies so far guys... But at the risk of sounding like a jerk, I would like to hear from people who have had "hands on" experience w/bullet wounds. You know, medical profs.

I've read all the same publications that you all have and have plenty of opinions formed from my research. Now let's hear from the people who deal w/this on a regular basis.

I know they are out there...


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Dan

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You're no jerk, but I don't believe the med guys are going to shed the light on this for you. And, Sanow certainly isn't.

Only in Hollywood does someone shoot a BG with innocent by-standers around him. If you are worried about over-penetration because of what you may hit, you shouldn't be shooting. **There is a far better chance of you missing the BG, than a bullet over-penetrating!** Again, know what is behind your target.

It's amusing to me to hear the pro-Sanow group slam the Firearms Tactical site. I'm personally grateful for someone shedding light on Sanow's inaccurate representations. He has been shown to be fuzy with the facts. Appearently, some have based their whole world on Sanow, so that when he is shown to be inaccurate, their world is shaken! Why do some take-up offense for Sanow? Firearms Tactical gives the facts. Then, lets you decide for yourself.

Top Five Silly Issues From Sanow, IMHO:
1-"Street Results" (facts were inaccurate)
2-Over-penetration (non-issue)
3-Fuller index (based on faulty data)
4-One-shot stopping power (placement is what counts, and faulty data)
5-Energy Transfer (what's that all about?)

Really, I don't mean to insult any Sanow followers, but come on. Why would anyone invest so much trust in any one source? Sanow has put out some valuable info- he's not all bad. But, evidently, Sanow didn't even use calibrated geletin until the mid-nineties! And if he has been shown to have misrepresented his "street results" sources, how can I trust him with other facts? Let's not compartmentalize, like a well-known president! Questions in one area, breed questions in others.

Just a thought.

In good spirit,
David
 
Overpenetration is a NON issue. Even with a 10mm. Obviously is you use a bullet made for penetration that's what you are going to get. One of the most powerful 10mm factory loads around, the Win. Silvertip doesn't have much more penetration than a .40 or 9mm. Like the others have said, you are FAR more likely to miss anyway, so why pick a bullet with less than adequate penetration just because some gun rag writer says so. It is more important to end the gunfight quickly than worry about something as stupid as overpenetration. Use the most effective bullet you have. Most importantly, if overpenetration is an issue, you shouldn't be taking the shot anyway!
 
Excuse me, overpenetration in handguns???
What is this? And penetration of what?
Sheet of paper, brick wall or tank armour?
This subject is CREATED artificially by
the sales people, who need to sell all this
fancy "defensive ammo" to fun-loving Americans. I'm not buying this stupid joke
and this fancy ammo anyway...FMJ or modest JHP always did a good job, particularly when delivered accurately, and you do not have all these feeding problems in autos.
If you feel uncomfortable to shoot because
"potential overpenetration" thingie sits in
your mind, I'll say the same thing others have said - you may need to gain a bit more confidence in use of firearms. Take care.
 
Well, I said I was an EMT and saw firsthand the hardball .45 not exit a torso shot in multiple occasions. Is that not good enough medical experience for you?
 
Red Bull, brother in arms, take a chill. I did not mean to offend you. In fact, your response was exactly what I was looking for.

I probably should not have posted that last post of mine. I was annoyed because I asked a specific question. A pretty clear question.

What I got was responses that remind me of the rules of firearm safety and posts reminding me that there are no magic bullets etc...

I know all that. But then again all responses are welcome. Please don't anybody get offended.

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Dan

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Dan,

I offer no statistics on the matter, but it is my belief that if you hit your target overpenetration is a moot point.

I have seen a couple of bullet wounds. In my experience it is the head shots and extremity shots that consistently overpenetrate. The pelvis/abdomen/chest shots do so much less frequently. Usually shots taken are at very much less than ideal angles and have to travel through quite a bit of tissue to hit something vital.

Penetration, instead of overpenetration, is the issue to me in handgun calibers. If this person is about to kill you, who cares? The best way to avoid "overpenetration" is to hit your target. One miss is much worse than multiple hits both tactically and for those bystanders.

Olazul
 
Dan, I apologize for coming across terse. I was not nearly as annoyed and ticked off as my post appeared. It was more in he context of an honest question, but it came across sounding angry.
 
I am an emergency physician with 20 years' experience. Red Bull has seen more .45 hardball GSW's than have I. Large calibers are, in my experience, not popular in the ghetto.

Most of the GSW's I saw were .22, .25, .32 and .38. In nearly all of these GSW's, the bullet remained in the body. The exceptions were glancing wounds. I had one guy who shot himself in the gluteus maximus twice; once on each of two occasions, while putting his .25 auto away in his back pocket! These wounds were through and through, and trivial.

I don't recall seeing very many large caliber wounds, and don't recall a single through and through wound of large caliber bullet.

I think that concern with overpenetration is indicative of a problem with your mind set. You are worried about peripheral considerations. Your only concern should be putting the bad guy down. I stipulate that the bad guy is about to do you lethal harm.

The best way to do this is to put large holes through vital organs, and repeat until the BG is down. Shoot the largest caliber you can shoot accurately, and shoot for the center of mass. GSW victims almost always bleed to death, and this takes a while.

Hope this helps, Walter Welch MD, Diplomate, American Board of Emergency Medicine
 
Doctor is right, if bullet makes two holes
instead of one, it is more productive, technically speaking...

Oris, the Mechanical Design Engineer, MSME.
 
Dan,

Sorry to be yet another non-EMT respondee but this does touch on a subject that has long puzzled me. I've heard many many hunters who use large caliber pistols talk about using hard cast slugs for maximum bone breaking penetration on large game, and also to hopefully produce 2 holes so that the critter "bleeds out" more quickly. This would seem to follow the methodology of using a large bore FMJ like a .45 for maximum penetration and potentially a double hole blood loss. This seems at odds with using JHP's which go for maximum damage in say 10 inches or so and max. internal bleeding at the risk of not penetrating major blood vessels that may lie slightly beyond their reach, as was the case with that infamos 9mm silvertip in the Miami shootout, so which is best and is there a real difference. Help I'm confused.

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Mike H
 
I worked in an ER while I was in college. We had a guy come in with a GSW to his abdomen. It was from a .38 spcl snub revolver, contact distance. Upon radiographic examination, it was discovered that the slug penetrated only about 1.5 inches. He was a pretty fat guy.
My father was shot twice by a burgler when he surprised him upon returning home from a trip. The first round of 9mm fmj entered his thigh and broke his femur. The bullet fragments are still in him. The second shot was through and through and penetrated the periphery of his abdomen. No vitals were hit.
So what does this mean? I dunno. Maybe you can never predict the performance of a missile when it hits the target.
 
Mike, you said:

"This seems at odds with using JHP's which go for maximum damage in say 10 inches or so and max. internal bleeding at the risk of not penetrating major blood vessels that may lie slightly beyond their reach..."

The technical idea behind the use of JHP is
to produce exit hole much bigger than entry hole, that's it. Nothing else. Loss of blood through 1-1.5" dia. hole will be tremendous,
in comparison with .30-50" dia. entry, with addition effect of damaging more tissue.

JHP hold simple advantage to FMJ - 1 small+
1 big hole against 1 small+ 1 small hole.

What you said can be relevant to other bullet
designs, but not JHP.

You are right looking at hunters - they are
always looking for maximum effectiviness.
They do not use Glazers, MagSafes and etc...
They use JHP and slugs to kill with one shot.
 
Thanks again for the replies. It seems that my thoughts on the matter are in line w/the real world and w/everyone else (for the most part).

I was a witness to a shooting a few years back. Seems a woman was not pleased w/her man's performance in the fidelity dept. She "counseled" him via 3 rnds of .357 Mag. Me and a buddy of mine were the first to get to him (after she fled the scene). He got 2 rnds to the torso and was still concious, but on the ground.

I didn't see a whole lot of blood, and certainly none leaking from his backside.

As for the trigger woman, she never went to trial. I believe she plea bargained her charges down and just did her sentence. A real shame, I was looking forward to testifying in court...


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Dan

Si vis pacem para bellum!

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