Overemphasis on caliber? Expect too much from a handgun?

Shooting goats!

:rolleyes: Why? Goats havn't started holding up liquor store yet, have they? I hope the researchers removed the lanyard around the goat's throat before the photo opportunity.
 
It has been my impression from reading this thread that animal tests record the results of a single shot - is that the case?

We are taught to shoot at the threat and to continue shooting at the threat until the threat is eliminated. Thus, the effect of a single shot is not unimportant but not necessarily conclusive as to the value of a particular caliber to a particular person.

Also, while a goat or person shot once may not have fallen down, the goat or person in at least some instances would be incapacitated to do any harm.

People are killed and not infrequently "stopped" every day from both single and multiple hand gun wounds.

A few days ago, local TV news showed a video of an attempted armed robbery of a convenience store. It was within about four miles of where I now sit. The person behind the counter grabbed a gun kept behind the counter and shot the perpetrator once, in the stomach and without any aiming apparent from the video. The perpetrator doubled over in apparent pain, and in that bent over posture ran (more or less) from the store. He died not far out of the door. Police arrived on the scene. The defending shooter was not charged with anything and was allowed to go home. The police said it was a very clearly justifiable shooting.

On the other side of the coin, a few weeks ago about five miles from where I sit now, goons with guns tried to rob an unarmed person who had just left a convenience store. He tried to escape by driving away. They chased after him in a car and shot him dead.

For my money, handguns are seriously deadly. They're easily carried and concealed. When the chips are down, I'd rather have one in my possession than not. Even a .22 is better than nothing, but a 9mm that I confidently can use is even better. Two shots are more deterrent than one, three are more deterrent that two, and so on, if you continue shooting (placement, placement, placement) until the threat is neutralized. YMMV
 
Come on. If you have a gun pointed at me or any healthy teen that knows what he needs to do and you are at 6 feet your gun is attacked at the very least before you can pull the trigger. No matter what you think.
 
You could be using a bazooka, BUT you gotta hit what you are aiming/shooting at. If you don't hit then caliber is a mute point.
 
Since it doesn't matter what I think...

Come on. If you have a gun pointed at me or any healthy teen that knows what he needs to do and you are at 6 feet your gun is attacked at the very least before you can pull the trigger. No matter what you think.

I'm not going to try and change your mind. But still think your scenario is preposterous. 6 feet away, and you (or any "healthy teen) are going to disarm me before I can fire a cocked gun (no draw, gun already out, pointed, safety-if any- off)? I seriously doubt it. Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, or Jet Li might get to me, but I believe that they are going to get shot in the process.

Normal reaction time for a healthy young adult is on the order of 1/10 of a second. Some people are even faster. Ed McGivern could draw and fire 10 shots, from two guns, that hit a playing card at 20 feet. And he did it in 9/20 of a second, including the draw!

you may be the Flash, but if I'm holding a cocked gun, I'm no slouch, either.

Try this; set a 2 liter pop bottle on a post. Stand 6 feet away. Have someone with a cocked gun stand next to you. See if you can knock the bottle off the post with your hands (or feet, if you prefer) before the guy next to you can drop the hammer. Video it and put it on U tube. THEN I'll believe it.

The only way some people actually pull off this stunt is when the person with the gun has not already made up their mind to shoot at the instant you move. Its great in the movies, but then, lots of things are. Try it in real life, against someone who has already decided to shoot, and you are going to have at least one hole in you by the time you reach them.
 
Action beats re-action every time.

I think in a gg vs. bg scene, a real life or death scene, at close range, just about any creep young or old, can most very well get inside your decision making process without to much trouble at all.

I could be wrong, but you can check with the squids at the real TopGun Naval Air Wing, Tonopha, Nevada, and you will find that it's .25 of a second is the zenith of human re-action.

These days mine is about a week give or take.

Tom Cruise beware!
 
44 AMP & warningshot

Reaction times for adults varies based on the complexity of the task, perception of the need for action and the inherent lag time of their bodies (which is different for every person).

Typically, anything from .25 to .75 seconds is considered "average" for moderately complex situations, like driving in traffic. Remember that these are reactions to changes in a situation.

Summary: It's not only possible for someone who is at gunpoint to disarm or shoot their antagonist, but sometimes very likely. The key is that the person at gunpoint initiates the action whilst the person holding the gun has to both identify the threat and decide to shoot before he is overwhelmed.

Force Science News wrote of an experiment they did. Using a camera, they filmed a group of students who were given a blank firing gun, told to conceal it and then, on their own initiative, draw, fire and turn 180° to run away. Since they were not responding or reacting to some stimulus (a bell, buzzer, etc.) they were free to perform when they were ready, just as a perp on the street might. Keep in mind that a majority of the students just tucked the gun in the front waistband and covered it with shirt or sweater.

Shockingly, students could draw and fire their guns from concealment faster than a normal reaction time. If I recall correctly, the fastest draw & shoot time was something like 0.19 seconds! Average was around .50 seconds. Students could draw, shoot and turn their backs square to the camera anywhere from .59 to 1.2 seconds.

Shooting someone is a very complex task and not one to be taken lightly if you want to stay out of jail. Consequently many reaction times by "good guys" are 0.6 seconds or longer between the time the threat is perceived and the gun goes off.

I'll have to see if I have that particular FSN article still on my computer if y'all are interested.

The bottom line is to never take for granted that you can identify the threat, decide how to react to that threat and execute that decision faster than the other person can hurt you.
 
Action beats re-action every time.

This is a flat out myth based on misunderstaning when applied in these situations.. If action beats reaction every time, a boxer could never block an incoming punch. Linebackers would never catch runningbacks. A person could never reactively outdraw another person in a gun fight.

The problem with this myth is that it assumes a conclusion result to what is a long series of events, even if they only happen in a short person of time. However, in action and reaction, all that is being referred to is the START of hte event cycle, not the conclusion.

Action will not beat reaction if the action being performed takes longer than the reaction needed to defeat it. Boxer A throws a right handed roundhouse punch. The Action or Boxer A starts with a shoulder muscle flinch as the arm is engaged into the action. Boxer R sees the flinch and the starting motion of the arm.

Since Action will always beat reaction, we know that Boxer R cannot stop a roundhouse punch, right? Wrong. Boxer A's flinch turns into the throw of a roundhouse punch where his fist will have to travel over 4 feet in distance to connect with Boxer R's head. Boxer R's left hand that guards the lower front of his face in position to respond to punches needs only to move 6" to protect the side of his head and that is if his head stays in place. If the head and parry arm move in unison, the parry arm may need only move 3" while the head moves 3" and it is protected in a proverbial duck and parry. So Boxer R only needs to reactively move 1/8 to 1/16th the distance to successfully defeat Boxer A's action and this happens a LOT in boxing matches.

If you have an Action person with a 3 second ankle holster draw going against a Reaction person with a 1.8 second belt draw do you think action will beat reaction? It does not matter if this is at VERY close range or not. Even if the Reaction person has the slower 0.75 second reaction response time BillCA refers to (not the Top Gun 0.25 second time), the Reaction person is going to kick the Action person's butt by 0.45 seconds.

Action can only be said to ALWAYS beat reaction if and only if you are referring to the start of an event, not the conclusion of it. If you are talking about he conclusion of a sequence as is commonly the case in self defense teachings, then the only factual statement is that action MAY beat reaction.

This gets at what pythagorean was talking about. He is wrong that the person with the gun isn't likely to be able to React and pull the trigger before the unarmed person can Act and cover the distance. The action is simply going to take too long to perform. It can happen, but it involves mitigating circumstances such as the person with the gun not paying attention to the unarmed person, being drunk, wounded, or otherwise unable to actually deal with the situation.
 
Guns (handguns) need distance. If you or anyone is 6 or 8 feet from me with a gun and I am unarmed I can make a really bad day for you. The movies show idiots pushing guns into faces and heads let alone the fact the gun holder is under 6 feet. What nonsense. The time it takes for a human being to shoot a cocked gun at that distance is too slow before the unarmed individual has committed himself to disarm or kill with hands or feet or body.


Yeah, that's true -- sometimes, maybe even most of the time. The rest of the time, the gun goes off.

I do know that several cop friends have told me that inside of 10 feet a knife is as deadly as a gun, maybe more so. They also assume that EVERYONE is hiding a knife or gun and about to use it on them. Sure, they're paranoid, I just hope they are paranoid enough.

Back when I was young and dumb I was training in martial arts 6 days a week for 3-5 hours at a whack. Buddies (or buddies of buddies more often) would spout off that any fool with a gun can kill a karate man. So I would turn my back on them, tell them to put a finger in my back like it was a gun and honestly tell me if they could shot me. Every time, I could whip around, bring them to the ground and neutralize them before they could squeeze their finger. Now, most of those guys had been lit up pretty good by that point. so the odds were in my favor! But I know it's possible (not by me anymore!), but possible.

However.... Those were half drunk idiots that had never shot a gun before. I sure as heck wouldn't have tried it with a hardened criminal unless I was sure he was going to pull the trigger anyway.
 
Remember that for most of us, very few situations are simple "cut and dried" ones. In most situations, drawing the gun changes the dynamics of a situation in your favor very fast. Even when it doesn't affect the actions of your attacker, actually firing it certainly will.

Except in cases where someone really tried to kill you before surrendering at the sight of your gun, it's hard to think of a case where someone would pose a sufficient threat and then surrender rather than run away -- to be used as an example.

But if that happens -- a serious threat with a tire iron that disappates when you draw your gun, but the perp remains instead of fleeing -- you can still draw the short-end of the stick.

In my LE training (30 some years ago) two things we were taught. (1)The most opportune time to jump someone is when they are talking. Thus, keep your commands very short and terse. (2) when holding a gun on someone under 15 ft away, keep the gun close to your body instead of arms-extended.

At close range, if your opponent is talking, that's the time to jump him. It's best if he's talking vs. giving commands. This involves interrupting the OODA loop to your advantage. For civilians it's even harder for them to react due to lack of training.

For instance, while talking you spot a "furtive movement" on the part of the suspect. Your brain's processing sifts through a "decision" tree (much simplified below) to reach the conclusion to shoot.

(I) Talking - expressing a train of thought
....(A) Perception of unwanted movement
....(B) Stop talking
(II) Is movement hostile?
....(A) Direction of movement
....(B) Speed of movement judgement
(III) Can lethal force still be used?
....(A) Do State statutes require retreat?
....(B) Does his unarmed status negate lawful use of lethal force?
(IV) Movement IS hostile
....(A) Enough time to avoid use alternate force?
....(B) Can his attack be avoided?
(V) Deploy lethal force
....(A) brain messages to body muscles
....(B) Body brace for fight/impact.

This happens in "an instant" between 0.1 and 0.5 seconds before you reach item (V) and deploy lethal force. In contrast, you opponent has decided to attack and his plan is simple - lunge for the gun NOW and use everything, hands, feet, teeth, head to gain weapon or control, then flee. While your brain is still reacting to his movement where he was standing, he is almost on top of you when you decide to fire.

The key elements are time and distance. At close proximity the person at gunpoint may have the advantage of distance (he's within striking range or can be within range quickly). If he's fit and able to move fast, he can actually use the advantage. If he doesn't have one or the other, a distraction can suffice to offset that lack. The gun holder talking, or dialing/speaking on the phone, warning others to stay back, etc.

Now... if Sammy Scumbag has just attempted to split my head open with an aluminum baseball bat but at the sight of my gun he "gives up", the threat is known and real. Forcing the mind to into a "lethal force mode" is hard to do, but after being told not to move, should Sammy make any move abruptly, the result is a loud noise. Since the attempt has already been made, the decision tree is whittled down to simply "shoot or evade".
 
Pretty well said Double Naught. The situation that I (thought, anyway) was under discussion was the "reactor" holding an aimed, cocked gun on the "actor", who is 6 feet away.

When I was a teenager, I had my reaction time tested. It was .1 sec (I'm sure I slower now, ;)), my Dad's was .3 sec. This was on a course where we knew (had decided) in advance, what we were going to do when we got the signal. This is what I was talking about when I said the shooter had made up their mind to shoot if the actor moved. Unless you are frozen in doubt (and its a very human thing to be), if you have already decided to shoot at the recognition of movement (the start signal), I doubt there are many humans who could reach you before you could get a shot off.

I'm not talking about the time needed to make up your mind to shoot, or even if you can put the bullet in the right place, those things are outside factors to my contention. True, they are very important real world considerations in a defense situation, but I'm just talking about the physical situation. Can a "healthy teenager" cross the 6 feet and "attack the weapon" before it can be fired? I'd say go to Mythbusters, but sometimes the methodology they use to "prove" something doesn't prove anything but their methodology.

We're getting way off topic, so, back on, I think most people who have their firearms experience mainly from the entertainment industry will expect too much from a handgun. There's also people who feel you must have a .44 mag, at minimum to hunt deer. Lots of unrealistic expectations out there. I don't think mine are, but then, I do have some experience. I'm also willing to be proven wrong. I just don't think I am, this time.
 
In boxing I was taught it was reaction to a stimulus not the reaction time that was the key to winning or losing. I was almost always the slowest and shortest man in the ring and often the strongest. A good fast man without much punch could outpoint me if he didn't make any mistakes. Most of them did and I won most of my fights with very few punches thrown. Not because I was so good or so strong but because my reaction to the opening they left me was right and I got their button whether it was in the chest or on the head.

Same in street fights, you are a fighter or not. If you have trained and are prepared to fight the other man is going to get hurt and the fight will be short.

3 knife fights where I was attacked and I was unarmed. 3 knives taken 3 men down, two if them pretty bruised up. Why? They threatened me and I reacted, i didn't stop to plea for mercy, didn't reach for a weapon, Didn't try any fancy martial arts moves I just went for them and caught them by surprise. It was their reaction that beat them.

Gun fight is the same, you are prepared or you aren't. There are times when there is no time to think. You see a bad situation and you know you have to shoot, you should already be pulling back on the trigger. If you don't some mope is going to shoot you, knife you or bean you with his crowbar.

6' or 36' it flat out does not make a difference in my experience. It's attitude and reaction, not super quick reflexes and a superior intellect that will get you out of a bad spot. This is why old men and little ladies have bested bad guys with their own weapon, they refused to be victims, they react bad guy is surprised then he is shot. I'll take a 76 year old lady with spunk over a 22 year old game boy expert any day of the week when it comes to surviving a bad day. I don't care how fast Game boys reflexes are.

Maybe it's just a country boy thing. Unlike the movies we don't really fight much and when we do the fight is usually over with pretty quick.
 
A better test of the effects of these calibers on the goats would be to fire 2 or 3 rounds rapidly. If those nasty goats were shooting at you, you would not fire once and wait to see what happens next.
 
The test only used semi auto rounds except for the 357 mag. I have owned a 44 mag and currently own the Ruger 454 Casull. I ASSURE you they will not be standing 8-9 seconds after the 44 hits him and we won't even talk about the 454, it would be hard for him to stand with a quarter of his body removed:eek:. Of course caliber makes a difference but you need to test them all to see where the real difference is. Anyway, what a bogus test, unless you live in a country of midgets.:)
 
Thank You Bill C.; as for Double Knot, listen-up

An example of action beating re-action, is when you here someone say something like, "I saw it coming but I couldn't do anything about it".

Boxers are Ko'ed every day from punches they never saw coming. Some punches are telegraphed and some are not. Linebackers are waxed every game day. Have you ever heard the term, 'first down' ? That is why teams have a backfield.
 
Action v. Reaction

As said earlier, it is quite possible for someone in close proximity to evade a gunshot or take your weapon if you're holding him at gunpoint, even with a SA handgun.

Have you noticed how, in many forums and training classes, instructors (and even amongst all of us) there is so much emphasis on "doing it right" or "doing it by the book"? There are a lot of legal technicalities to worry about. And the warning is you'd better know for a fact that you were in the right or plan on years in jail.

That can cause hesitation at the wrong moment. I'll combine two points I want to make here. First, suppose your state's laws say that if someone enters your home through a locked door, window, crawlspace, roof access, etc. etc. and offers violence, there is no need to retreat and lethal force is justified.

So here you are at oh-damn-thirty, standing in your BVD's, at the corner of the end of the hallway with a commanding view of the living room and kitchen, your favorite pistol braced against the corner in classic barricade stance. The sights are centered on Dudley Dirtbag who has dropped your 8-inch chef's knife on the living room carpet and from about 9 feet away he's in the "surrender position".

Now, he starts talking to you, laying the story on you. He thought it was his buddy's house (doesn't explain the knife, me bucko!) because the door was "unlocked" or "wide open". He says he's sorry, but "man, if you shoot me, you're gonna be spendin' money like Congress." He tells you he's unarmed, that the cops are sure to see your knife as a "plant".

First, the uncertainty principle starts to work. We've all been the devil is in the details -- like was the door/window locked? He can add to that by raising the issue your legal fees or the "planted" evidience. He's expecting you to try to assimilate this, sift through the "am I justified to shoot" decision tree and conclude there is doubt about your justification.

Meanwhile, he's managed with causal body movements while speaking to ease about 6-12 inches closer to you. This is calculated to allow him to get within his striking zone while your brain is still figuring things out.

He wants you to ignore any weapons he threw down or objects he had in his hands. He wants you to ignore the fact that his unlawful presence constitutes a clear danger.

So, the really astute student will identify the threat is armed and when he realizes he's been discovered by an armed resident, he drops his weapon and "surrenders". At this stage, depending on distance from you, your ability to observe him out the nearest exit, and other factors, you give him short, terse, un-ambigious commands: Get out of my house NOW! or "Get on the ground. Get on the ground NOW!" If he begins to argue the point as above, repeat the command and if he doesn't follow your commands, it's time to see how well your JHP selection really works.

This means short-circuiting some of the "normal" decision processes. You've ID'd the bad guy as not belonging there, armed or posing a serious threat, he's uncooperative and refuses an opportunity to disengage and flee. Thus, his threat continues since he is unafraid of being shot/killed he must believe he can gain the advantage and disable YOU. At this stage, it is irrelevant if the door/window was unlocked or that he is (now) disarmed. Logic dictates he demonstrated his evil intent by being armed inside your home in the first place.

This is why old men and little ladies have bested bad guys with their own weapon, they refused to be victims, they react bad guy is surprised then he is shot. I'll take a 76 year old lady with spunk over a 22 year old game boy expert any day of the week when it comes to surviving a bad day. I don't care how fast Game boys reflexes are.
This may also be due to some of our senior citizens having a sense of outrage that someone would pick on them and/or not really knowing or caring about the technical details of the law. Simple disparity of force will favor the senior over the teen and offset some of the technical requirements. Plus, many people think of Seniors as slow, frail and frightened "old fogeys", forgetting that they've been in worse places, like Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Dachau, Bataan, Pusan and Khe Sahn -- and seen tougher foes. And it's simply tougher to hold seniors in those situations accountable for minor technical faults.

They simply focus on the problem at hand - dealing with a low-life with the nerve to attack a senior citizen! :D
 
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