Overemphasis on caliber? Expect too much from a handgun?

C

CDW4ME

New member
In the book Street Stoppers a "test" was conducted called the Strasbourg Goat Test. They shot about 500 goats with a typical weight of 150# with various handgun ammunition. Each bullet got it's performance recorded on 5 goats. The goats were positioned for a broadside shot throught the lungs. "Incapacitation" times were recorded, that's how long it took the goat to fall to the floor and not get back up. Whether the test was bias toward any ammunition or not, like sponsored, I did notice one main thing. Handgun bullets took a long time in general to drop a goat.

The Hydra Shok, A "good" 45 bullet from a 5'' barrel about 8 1/2 seconds.
Winchester Silvertip 155 gr. 40 S&W from a 4'' barrel about 8 seconds.
Winchester Silvertip 10mm 175 gr. from a 4.25'' barrel took about 8 seconds.
Remington 125 gr. .357 mag fired from a 4'' barrel took about 7 1/2 seconds.
The Cor-Bon 115 gr. 9mm +P fired from a 4 1/4'' barrel took about 9 seconds.

These were the better performing conventional bullet loads in their caliber.

I make the generalization that it takes about 8-9 seconds to drop a 150# goat with a handgun regardless of caliber using 9mm and up. (They did test 380 and .38 Special, the results were slower)

8-9 seconds to drop a goat that's not attempting to shoot back, not high, not pumped up on adrenline.

Are we placing too much emphasis on caliber when it comes to SD?
 
And the tests may not have occurred or not as described.

If the tests are real and you are in a fight with a 150 lb goat who is armed with a gun and you only have a handgun, you now know how long you need to survive to win.
 
Now I understand why those guns in the gun shops down by the zoo had such large trigger guards... Must be a pain to get your hooves on the trigger with a normal one. While I support our 2A right to arm bears, shouldn't we enact legislation to restrict armed criminal wild goat gangs from running wild in our cities, towns and country side?


But seriously....

If you think 7-10 seconds is a long time to incapacitation --> imagine how long it takes when all you have is a closed fist? Just be thankful you have more than one bullet.
 
Reading the OP in my mind's eye I went back to Jack Ruby shooting Lee Harvey Oswald with that puny 38spl out of a 2" bbl. Oswald went down right now and was dead within the hour IIRC. Of course there are a ton of examples of people shot full of holes who keep going. Cole Younger comes to mind and some of his wounds were from rifle bullets.
 
http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm

"In mid-1993, the results of an authorless "study" done purportedly by shooting more than 600 goats in Strasbourg, France, were circulated, anonymously, throughout the handgun community. A copy of these "Strasbourg Tests" was sent to the Firearms Training Unit of the FBI just before a scheduled meeting of the Wound Ballistics Committee. The committee members, all respected pathologist or trauma surgeons, were unanimous in their opinion that these "tests" were, in fact, a hoax -- and had been fabricated, most likely by somebody without a medical background. A detailed analysis of these tests was published in the Wound Ballistics Review."
 
Even if the tests had actually been done, the conformation of the thorax is one of the few places where the anatomy of four-legged animals is drastically different from humans. A shot, presumably from the side, to an animal with a sagitally compressed thorax is a poor model for the effects of a frontal shot to the human animal with its frontally compressed thoracic anatomy.
 
Well, once people realize that the objective is to "STOP THE THREAT", and that doesn't necessarily mean that the bad guy you shot DIES, then people will realize that ANY of these types of reports are totally stupid. 95% of all threats are eliminated simply by displaying a firearm. The minute you draw the weapon, the bad guy turns and runs, and THUS the THREAT IS GONE. For the paranoid in life, that is why god created the 44 magnum.
 
The fact that we don't like to consider (include me in this) is that handguns, ALL handguns, suck. Some may be worse than others but in terms of actual performance handguns are all pretty lousy.

What they are is a compromise between some sort of defensive/offensive power and portability.

So knowing where to put the shots for the most effect, having the ability to do so, and having a "bailout" plan are all at least as important as the caliber.
 
I think we, as gun owners/carriers, get a little too caught up in calibers. A handgun is a form of protection that really can only increase our ODDS of surviving the very rare encounter of presenting a weapon to stave off an attack.

As it has been mentioned time and time again, any handgun is grossly inadequate compared to a long arm when it comes to stopping a threat. A handgun is going to be a compromise for anyone that believes in carrying a firearm for protection. The compromise is always going to be up to the individual's needs regarding weight, concealment, power, comfort, and perceived recoil.

Probable threat level must also come into question. Not to say that anyone knows when and where violence is going to happen to them. If we did, we could leave the puny handgun at home and simply pack a shotgun to the known fight;) However, if one lives in a high crime area, then it makes prudent sense to pack the maximum amount of comfortable firepower as possible. Others feel perfectly protected with a small .380 in their pocket.

Personally, with my particular lifestyle, line of work, and neighborhood I feel quite armed with an auto shooting 9x18mak or up or a wheelgun with .38 +p. A .45 is always welcome, but mine are chunky and bulky. For me, it is better to have that .38 on my always than to decide that the Glock would just print too much.
 
Naw, caliber doesn't matter at all.

That's why various law enforcement agencies do so much ammo and cartridge testing, right?

Seems like I remember the FBI having some trouble stopping a thug or two with 9mm's, which led them to look for a new cartridge.

10mm, and later the .40 S&W were adopted as a result. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they've used the 9mm since?

Oh, I know; the 9mm with modern ammo is just as good as .40 S&W, and in fact it's better because it has less recoil. I'd maybe buy that, 'cept that some really smart guy once figured out that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. That means if it kicks harder, it also hits harder...at least to the point where the bullet exits the target.

Oh well; maybe Newton never shot a 9mm, huh?

Seriously, I've shot enough coyotes, javalinas and such to have some idea of what to expect from my handgun(s) (regarless of goat tests possibly performed by an annonymous person in France). I've seen some strange things happen, but the results still lead me to believe a handgun is the best tool I can easily carry for SD.

Daryl
 
IMO, caliber is not as important as the combine velocity, weight, SD, and type of bullet.

The old traditional "softball" target ammunition for the .45 would have had the worst wound ballistics of almost any cartridge. Even a 9 mm, with a state of the art round would be more damaging than that subsonic FMJ. I'd say that a .357 in any weight, at full potential velocity would be more deadly than the old .45 colt black powder load.

Caliber isn't the answer, a well designed and powerful round is what causes tissue damage and disabling wounds.
 
Got to remember in these test. Goats don't know they were just killed when shot and don't react like a person other than die'n. Specialy if meth'd up. And the fbi test takes to much time and money to stay current AND what they want for a bullet doesn't allways work best for just simmply killing some punk. There are a few bullet designs that work better than ,say a gold dot,hyro or silver tip but maybe don't shoot as well threw steel or glass. Take a barnes X or a hot soft lead gas check in a 38 or up and they will do the job on meat and clothing along with a 124gr hornady cd load , but not are right for a leo's job. After all when someone is shot as many times as some cops shoot the bad guys and they live or atleast live for some time , i don't want it in my gun reguardless of caliber. If any of you just happen to know a retired fbi agent, set down and talk to them about bullets and calibers and what they might like to carry .If of course they are an outdoorman to begin with. You could have some interesting talks. To many people here don't hunt ,or don't pistol hunt and have NO idea how game reacts or cleaned a deer or hog to look at the damage a bullet type does on impact at different velocites. They go by another goverment study that by the time it comes to pass could be be out dated or just mucked up- again.
 
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