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over/under shotgun
- Thread starter cmdc
- Start date
Give us more info ....
your budget ?
What are your primary uses for the gun ?
What kind of shotgun experience do you have ?
Couple of issues .. there are about 30 different models of the Browning Citori ...so to be generic is pretty difficult. But in general, Browning and Beretta ( the B guns ) give you a lot of gun for the money / and both produce very good long term guns.
I'm not sure where the Ruger is being made these days / but I think its Turkey - and some of their guns are ok / some not so much ...
Fill us in a little on the above and we can help you a lot better.
your budget ?
What are your primary uses for the gun ?
What kind of shotgun experience do you have ?
Couple of issues .. there are about 30 different models of the Browning Citori ...so to be generic is pretty difficult. But in general, Browning and Beretta ( the B guns ) give you a lot of gun for the money / and both produce very good long term guns.
I'm not sure where the Ruger is being made these days / but I think its Turkey - and some of their guns are ok / some not so much ...
Fill us in a little on the above and we can help you a lot better.
oneounceload
Moderator
+1 to Jim's questions...
Between the Citori and Ruger, go with the Browning EVERY time - even a used one over a new Ruger
Without a budget, you can get answers ranging from some cheap Russian/Chinese to a British "Best"
Between the Citori and Ruger, go with the Browning EVERY time - even a used one over a new Ruger
Without a budget, you can get answers ranging from some cheap Russian/Chinese to a British "Best"
The Browning Citori will be the better choice. Or you could go with a Merkel, they are pretty nice.Thought about Ruger Red Label and Citori, but I'm sure there are others.
Oh, yeah, and there's Beretta, too. Did I already mention that the Browning will be the better choice?
Rugers are made in the USA. "Experience the Finest in American Gunmaking" is their tagline.I'm not sure where the Ruger is being made these days / but I think its Turkey
To add to BigJimP's questions: How often do you plan on shooting your new O/U? With a field gun, some folks may shoot a box, or three, of shells per year -- others may shoot more than a 1,000 boxes annually crushing clays.
If you're going to shoot only a few boxes of shells per year, then by all means, buy the cheapest, decent looking, made in a hut with a dirt floor, O/U you find. Chances are, it won't break down for some time with so little use, so you don't have to worry about parts availability nor the company folding. And, shooting so little, you won't become proficient enough to recognize your O/U's short comings. Assume your new gun is dead-on accurate -- so, there's no need pattern it -- knowing how far out of regulation your gun really is will just be a distraction when you're guessing about target leads.
There's an up side to really cheap O/Us… They are great for teaching someone who's starting to get serious about shotgunning what features to look for and what to avoid in his next O/U purchase. (Yep, I've been there and done that) For the new shooter, it's very hard to justify paying $1,000+ more for a shotgun that seems exactly the same. This forum's experienced shooters try to steer the newbies away from guns they know will be unsatisfactory, but we all know the bargain basement guns can be irresistible to the budget conscious.
If you're going to shoot only a few boxes of shells per year, then by all means, buy the cheapest, decent looking, made in a hut with a dirt floor, O/U you find. Chances are, it won't break down for some time with so little use, so you don't have to worry about parts availability nor the company folding. And, shooting so little, you won't become proficient enough to recognize your O/U's short comings. Assume your new gun is dead-on accurate -- so, there's no need pattern it -- knowing how far out of regulation your gun really is will just be a distraction when you're guessing about target leads.
There's an up side to really cheap O/Us… They are great for teaching someone who's starting to get serious about shotgunning what features to look for and what to avoid in his next O/U purchase. (Yep, I've been there and done that) For the new shooter, it's very hard to justify paying $1,000+ more for a shotgun that seems exactly the same. This forum's experienced shooters try to steer the newbies away from guns they know will be unsatisfactory, but we all know the bargain basement guns can be irresistible to the budget conscious.
My apologies to the OP and Scorch ....thanks by the way ....but apparently all the Rugers are made in the US.
Unfortunately, I can't say I've been that impressed on the fit and finish I've seen on the Rugers around my gun club in the last year or so ...but I do think they're serviceable guns / not as good as Beretta and Browning if you want a gun that will last for 100,000 shells ...
Unfortunately, I can't say I've been that impressed on the fit and finish I've seen on the Rugers around my gun club in the last year or so ...but I do think they're serviceable guns / not as good as Beretta and Browning if you want a gun that will last for 100,000 shells ...
.300 Weatherby Mag
New member
BigJimP,
I'm with you... The wood to metal fit on the rugers is atrocious!!!
I'm with you... The wood to metal fit on the rugers is atrocious!!!
Technosavant
New member
Well, I fondled a Blaser F3 a couple weeks ago, and if I could justify it at all, I'd be going for one (maybe one day).
But you can get at least two Citoris for what that F3 would run. And that doesn't even get into the Krieghoff and Perazzi territory.
But in the much more reasonable price range, I'd probably look at Beretta and Browning over most of the others. There's some decent sub-kilobuck ones, but with O/Us, the higher priced stuff does cost more for a reason (and no, that reason isn't snobbery).
But you can get at least two Citoris for what that F3 would run. And that doesn't even get into the Krieghoff and Perazzi territory.
But in the much more reasonable price range, I'd probably look at Beretta and Browning over most of the others. There's some decent sub-kilobuck ones, but with O/Us, the higher priced stuff does cost more for a reason (and no, that reason isn't snobbery).
Trying to answer some of your good questions here. I guess the question was pretty generic. I have a fair amount of experience shooting shotguns, but have been out of it for a long while. As far as price range goes, I have no problem spending a couple thousand or so, but I want the best bang for the buck, so to speak.
I think most will concur, for your budget the B-guns (Brownings and Berettas) deliver the most bang for the buck. They have the "cheapest decent O/U" market pretty much to themselves. To my eye, the Citori styling shows a little of their Japanese heritage while the Berettas have a more traditional Italian/European look. Check 'em out, and try to shoot as many different ones as possible before making your final decision.
Get a B-gun, and every time you shoot it, you'll be thankful you didn't get a Ruger.
Get a B-gun, and every time you shoot it, you'll be thankful you didn't get a Ruger.
Funny, Zippy. The Ruger comment, that is. I will take a look at the Brownings and some others today at Cabela's, but I can spend pretty much whatever I want to, not really limited to $2000, I just thought that would get me a pretty nice shotgun. That being said, if I were to go up in price, what is the next jump in quality? I mean, I don't want to ago crazy and drop $20,000, but I would certainly consider something in a higher price range.
Technosavant
New member
The B guns in various states of trim tend to inhabit the $1500-3000 range (but then, Beretta will be happy to sell you a $6K O/U). Much depends on the exact model, nicer wood, adjustable stocks, etc., and you can have the same general model but at double the price of a lower level field gun.
I'd think that once you get past those, you start looking at Blasers and the like- that F3 American Skeet model I am lusting after comes in at around $6000 according to the dealer. I'd probably say try out a Browning and Beretta, and maybe have a look at the Blaser and decide if the extra is worth it to you. Then you start getting close to five figures and you're into the world of the K guns (Krieghoff, Kolar). You can still climb from there if you like.
I'd think that once you get past those, you start looking at Blasers and the like- that F3 American Skeet model I am lusting after comes in at around $6000 according to the dealer. I'd probably say try out a Browning and Beretta, and maybe have a look at the Blaser and decide if the extra is worth it to you. Then you start getting close to five figures and you're into the world of the K guns (Krieghoff, Kolar). You can still climb from there if you like.
oneounceload
Moderator
Funny, Zippy. The Ruger comment, that is. I will take a look at the Brownings and some others today at Cabela's, but I can spend pretty much whatever I want to, not really limited to $2000, I just thought that would get me a pretty nice shotgun. That being said, if I were to go up in price, what is the next jump in quality? I mean, I don't want to ago crazy and drop $20,000, but I would certainly consider something in a higher price range.
A step above the "B" guns come the Cesar Guerini, Blaser, B. Rizzini level of guns. Above that you get into Perazzi, Kolar, Kreighoff, Beretta DT-10 - this is the level of phenomenal target guns in the 8-12 K range that will last you your lifetime, plus that of your children and grandchildren and are made to go into the hundreds of thousands of targets range before needing some minor repairs like springs and firing pins. (On the trap side are Ljutic, Seitz and similar).
Above that you are getting more into the cosmetic issues of exhibition grade wood, museum-quality hand engraving, etc. (although Fabbri has made a name for himself with his pigeon guns - he and Perazzi were partners for a while).
If you are a somewhat serious, but casual shooter, the "B" guns are the ticket - if you are a little more serious and what somewhat better longevity, the Blaser, Zoli, B. Rizzini, Guerini, are the ticket. For someone who wants to really compete - the "K" guns or Perazzi are the norm. If you look at the the winners in the International shooting sports, especially the Olympics, you see Perazzi as the head-and-shoulder-above-the-rest choice.
If you can - buy one and be done, or buy cheap and replace
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Remember its not just about the integrity of the steel, etc - its also about "Fit" and some adjustability in the gun.
If you look at the stock dimensions closely - if the Beretta Fits you / then the Browning probably will not ---and vice versa...
There are 2 Browning Citori's that I think, will fit 99 % of the shooters out there - and have a lot of adjustability. The models are the Citori, XS Skeet or the XS Special - with the adj comb.
http://www.browning.com/products/ca...tent=citori-xs-skeet-adjustable-comb-firearms
http://www.browning.com/products/ca...l-(with-low-rib-and-adjustable-comb)-firearms
Both models are retailing in the $ 3,000 range / and they are a little different - the XS special has a matte, oil finish on it. The XS Skeet has the typical high gloss Browning varnish finish on it. The XS Special is available only in 12ga and in 30" or 32" barrels / the XS Skeet is available in 12ga and 20ga - and you will find some, from time to time, in 28ga and .410 In both guns, I favor the 30" barrels / 32" ( even for my size, at 6' 5" and 290 lbs ) gets a little clumsy for a fast target --- like Skeet, Sporting Clays or Doves ...
The adj parallel comb - in my opinion - makes them more versatile for "Fit". You get the same sight picture - if you shoot in a T shirt one day / or a heavy sweater and a heavy coat the next day - your face moves forward and back on the comb - but the point of impact does not change. The comb is adjustable left and right and up and down - so you can easily adjust it to fit your dimensions. No angled comb gun will allow you to do that - not even if it has an adj comb / because the angle does not change - so if you move forward or back on the comb even 1/2" - the muzzle goes up or down and your point of impact changes.
You can have a stock custom fit - or going with a parallel adj comb - is a better option in my view. Beretta has almost no parallel comb guns / Browning has a couple more - but they're best suited to "Trap" only in my opinion.
Personally - the XS Skeet model - is my primary gun in 12ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410 for Skeet, Sporting Clays and bird hunting. I like having 4 different guns / for the grandkids, etc ...
Besides being a solid gun / its also a Citori model that holds its value real well on the used market / and has for many years.
Browning Cynergy line is probably worth a look - its a different barrel to receiver connection than the Citori line / I have not gotten used to the look but to each his own. They are priced a little higher than the Citori line - gun to gun.
I also like the Blaser - but its more money ....and then there is Perazzi, Kolar and Krieghoff.
I'm not a Guerini, Rizzini, Zoli, etc ( sp ??) fan ....but that's not saying they're bad guns either.. The Beretta's just don't fit me / but they're strong guns as well ---
but I don't like the Beretta DT-10 even though it has all the "fit - adjustability" I need. To me, the Beretta DT-10 is more of a "Trap" gun ...and for Trap - I turn to a Browning Citori XT or the BT-99 or BT-100 in 32" or 34" barrels.
If you look at the stock dimensions closely - if the Beretta Fits you / then the Browning probably will not ---and vice versa...
There are 2 Browning Citori's that I think, will fit 99 % of the shooters out there - and have a lot of adjustability. The models are the Citori, XS Skeet or the XS Special - with the adj comb.
http://www.browning.com/products/ca...tent=citori-xs-skeet-adjustable-comb-firearms
http://www.browning.com/products/ca...l-(with-low-rib-and-adjustable-comb)-firearms
Both models are retailing in the $ 3,000 range / and they are a little different - the XS special has a matte, oil finish on it. The XS Skeet has the typical high gloss Browning varnish finish on it. The XS Special is available only in 12ga and in 30" or 32" barrels / the XS Skeet is available in 12ga and 20ga - and you will find some, from time to time, in 28ga and .410 In both guns, I favor the 30" barrels / 32" ( even for my size, at 6' 5" and 290 lbs ) gets a little clumsy for a fast target --- like Skeet, Sporting Clays or Doves ...
The adj parallel comb - in my opinion - makes them more versatile for "Fit". You get the same sight picture - if you shoot in a T shirt one day / or a heavy sweater and a heavy coat the next day - your face moves forward and back on the comb - but the point of impact does not change. The comb is adjustable left and right and up and down - so you can easily adjust it to fit your dimensions. No angled comb gun will allow you to do that - not even if it has an adj comb / because the angle does not change - so if you move forward or back on the comb even 1/2" - the muzzle goes up or down and your point of impact changes.
You can have a stock custom fit - or going with a parallel adj comb - is a better option in my view. Beretta has almost no parallel comb guns / Browning has a couple more - but they're best suited to "Trap" only in my opinion.
Personally - the XS Skeet model - is my primary gun in 12ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410 for Skeet, Sporting Clays and bird hunting. I like having 4 different guns / for the grandkids, etc ...
Besides being a solid gun / its also a Citori model that holds its value real well on the used market / and has for many years.
Browning Cynergy line is probably worth a look - its a different barrel to receiver connection than the Citori line / I have not gotten used to the look but to each his own. They are priced a little higher than the Citori line - gun to gun.
I also like the Blaser - but its more money ....and then there is Perazzi, Kolar and Krieghoff.
I'm not a Guerini, Rizzini, Zoli, etc ( sp ??) fan ....but that's not saying they're bad guns either.. The Beretta's just don't fit me / but they're strong guns as well ---
but I don't like the Beretta DT-10 even though it has all the "fit - adjustability" I need. To me, the Beretta DT-10 is more of a "Trap" gun ...and for Trap - I turn to a Browning Citori XT or the BT-99 or BT-100 in 32" or 34" barrels.
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cmdc,
Actually, I wouldn't recommend much more than your basic B-gun as a first O/U gun. When I previously commented:
Anyone can appreciate why a gun with lots of gold and fantastic wood costs more, but it doesn't shoot any better. You can chose a basic B-gun and then spend more for the same gun in a higher appearance grade -- that's as easy as looking in the catalog.
When you spend more for a specialized gun is when it gets tricky. This is where my evolutionary concept comes into play -- by shooting a "generic" gun you will learn about the features you want in a more specialized gun.
Assume you buy a generic "sporting" B-gun. Switching chokes you have fun shooting all the clay sports and it's a killer on dove. Let's assume of all the clay games, you like tarp the most. For your personality and abilities, a few rounds of singles followed by some handicap and doubles is about the best way you've found to spend time with your shotgun.
Naturally you want to do your best; but, after a while, you find that you've reached your peak with your generic B-gun. By now, you gained enough experience shooting and talking with other trap shooters, that you realize why guns specifically designed for trap shootings perform better than your generic gun. Before you started trap shooting you had no idea why trap guns have funny looking ribs -- now you want one.
Your next step is to up-grade to a trap specific gun. Instead of the generic "sporting" B-gun, you select a trap specific model. Then the cycle starts over: after a while you realize that the B-gun trap model may not be the best gun for your improved performance level. You've leaned even more and now you're ready for a gun with features that the B-guns don't offer. This is when you start looking for a specialized trap gun and the prices take a dramatic jump.
I'm primarily a Skeet shooter, and I still use my B-gun combo for trap. For me, it was several years between my first generic shotgun and my first "Skeet" O/U. It was another 20 years before I got a custom comp Skeet gun. Now I have several of them. Standing together in the rack most folks wouldn't see any difference between them, or notice a difference shooting them. To an experienced Skeet shooter they're just enough different to make a difference.
An afterthought: It may be easier to resell a high-grade (fancy looking) generic gun than a plain looking custom comp gun with an identical original price. Only a small percentage of shotgun shooters progress to an experience level that justifies a custom comp gun. Anyone with enough jingle in their jeans can get a high-grade generic gun.
Actually, I wouldn't recommend much more than your basic B-gun as a first O/U gun. When I previously commented:
There's an up side to really cheap O/Us… They are great for teaching someone who's starting to get serious about shotgunning what features to look for and what to avoid in his next O/U purchase.
I wasn't being flippant. Purchasing shotguns should be an evolutionary process. Let's face it, there are two reasons shotgun prices go up from the basic B-guns: You pay more to get a fancier gun, or you pay more to get a specialized limited production gun.Anyone can appreciate why a gun with lots of gold and fantastic wood costs more, but it doesn't shoot any better. You can chose a basic B-gun and then spend more for the same gun in a higher appearance grade -- that's as easy as looking in the catalog.
When you spend more for a specialized gun is when it gets tricky. This is where my evolutionary concept comes into play -- by shooting a "generic" gun you will learn about the features you want in a more specialized gun.
Assume you buy a generic "sporting" B-gun. Switching chokes you have fun shooting all the clay sports and it's a killer on dove. Let's assume of all the clay games, you like tarp the most. For your personality and abilities, a few rounds of singles followed by some handicap and doubles is about the best way you've found to spend time with your shotgun.
Naturally you want to do your best; but, after a while, you find that you've reached your peak with your generic B-gun. By now, you gained enough experience shooting and talking with other trap shooters, that you realize why guns specifically designed for trap shootings perform better than your generic gun. Before you started trap shooting you had no idea why trap guns have funny looking ribs -- now you want one.
Your next step is to up-grade to a trap specific gun. Instead of the generic "sporting" B-gun, you select a trap specific model. Then the cycle starts over: after a while you realize that the B-gun trap model may not be the best gun for your improved performance level. You've leaned even more and now you're ready for a gun with features that the B-guns don't offer. This is when you start looking for a specialized trap gun and the prices take a dramatic jump.
I'm primarily a Skeet shooter, and I still use my B-gun combo for trap. For me, it was several years between my first generic shotgun and my first "Skeet" O/U. It was another 20 years before I got a custom comp Skeet gun. Now I have several of them. Standing together in the rack most folks wouldn't see any difference between them, or notice a difference shooting them. To an experienced Skeet shooter they're just enough different to make a difference.
An afterthought: It may be easier to resell a high-grade (fancy looking) generic gun than a plain looking custom comp gun with an identical original price. Only a small percentage of shotgun shooters progress to an experience level that justifies a custom comp gun. Anyone with enough jingle in their jeans can get a high-grade generic gun.
Thanks, guys. There is obviously more to this adventure than I had anticipated. It makes sense to ease into this with a "B" gun when you explained all of the options available to me. I also see that I need to handle as many guns as possible rather than just ordering one that looks good to me.
Now, another question: Since I will be shooting targets more than hunting, which model would be the best? By that I mean should I be looking at a "field gun" or "trap/skeet" gun? How much crossover is there?
By the way, if you can't tell, I'm pretty new to this. When I was younger I hunted a fair amount, but my shotgun was an Ithaca Model 37, and I used it for everything, which most people probably do. Now that I'm older and can afford it, I want to do it right.
Now, another question: Since I will be shooting targets more than hunting, which model would be the best? By that I mean should I be looking at a "field gun" or "trap/skeet" gun? How much crossover is there?
By the way, if you can't tell, I'm pretty new to this. When I was younger I hunted a fair amount, but my shotgun was an Ithaca Model 37, and I used it for everything, which most people probably do. Now that I'm older and can afford it, I want to do it right.